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Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training
- sp332 8y agoWhy does this article look like it's mid-edit?
- vokep 8y agoCool article, but yea...this^ It has potential corrections and such just sitting there
- ChuckMcM 8y agoIn a symmetric system are there documented cases of people becoming suddenly very mentally challenged? Or artists or musicians who suddenly one day could no longer paint or play?
- defen 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips
- sushisource 8y agoThis happened to me with Archery and it took over a year to get over. Horrible. For me I think it was caused by hurting myself with the bowstring pretty badly on a botched shot and my mind would just freeze up anticipating that pain... I think. Weird stuff.
- jdietrich 8y agoAlso: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_dystonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_dystonia
- lifeisstillgood 8y agoI vaguely remember a story decades ago where a group of Russians were hypnotised to bell eve they were a famous Russian painter, and when out of the trance they could all paint to a high professional standard. I think what i am trying to say is that such memes have been around for years, and appeal to our "something for nothing" part of our lizard brain. It's why we all liked the "I know Kung-Fu" line in the matrix.
- draw_down 8y agoWhat does it mean to train an artist? You can train on technique, but art is more than technique.
- michaelmior 8y agoLooks like someone forgot to [COMBINE PARAS]
- phyzome 8y agoNope, they didn't forget to, it's in the past tense: [COMBINED PARAS] All is well! ^_^
- michaelmior 8y agoNope, there is also [COMBINE PARAS] in there as well. I didn't see the COMBINED until later on in the article.
- phyzome 8y agooh jeez there's actually a whole cluster of them -.-
- chris_wot 8y agoThere is also "detail[derail?]" Looks like this escaped their copyediting system. Oops. But this article is also written by someone promoting their website. I'd like to see some sources for where this information has come from.
- legohead 8y agoEach of the stories listed are suspicious. They feel like the crop circle hoax to me -- something they planned well to get attention. Are there any provable cases?
- jpmoyn 8y agoIm not sure they got their attention because only initials were provided in the article, but i do agree with your sentiment. Also, art is such a subjective practice. If there was a mathematics case i would be much more compelled to believe this.
- oblib 8y agoHere's one related to savant syndrome: "Daniel Tammet first came to worldwide attention in March, 2004 on international Pi Day (3/14 of course) when he recited, from memory, Pi to 22,514 decimal places." https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-syndrome/profiles-and-videos/profiles/daniel-tammet-brainman/ https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-...
- schoen 8y agoHowever, Tammet has been a savant from childhood, so he's a case of a better-known phenomenon. He didn't suddenly acquire previously unknown unusual abilities in adulthood. (Learning conversational Icelandic in a week is amazing, but he already anticipated that he could do it!)
- dr_teh 8y agoActually, he had a different name and was a memory competition champion who practiced every day. Instead of mentioning that, he decided to blame his entire abilities on a fever he had as a kid. Not to put him down or anything, but a lot of it is PR. Under the name Daniel Corney he even advertised PSYCHIC services. Definitely his abilities are incredible, but he also spent hours and years practicing them.
- 8y ago
- jotm 8y ago*Some become accomplished artists or musicians through self-training. Because only officially recognized and/or terribly expensive training is the only way to become high-skilled in anything. /s
- jancsika 8y agoIs there a control group of people who spend an equal amount of time and fervor investigating a new musical or artistic path without first having the "epiphany?" I had a friend in college with no prior musical training who decided his second year to become a classical guitarist. We kind of teased him at first because he clearly had no sudden music-related epiphanies nor any idea of the time involved to master an instrument much less learn to read music and understand theory. Nonetheless, he spent the time you'd think would be required on a daily basis to gain such competency, plus starting the music track classes. At the end of a year if I didn't already know his initial skill level and his general obsessive dedication to all endeavors, I'd have assumed he was a savant. Put another way-- most amateur musicians I know spend less than 30 minutes a week doing anything resembling practice. I often hear people drilling a mistake in that scant time. Given that, I'm amazed most people can play anything at all.
- ksdale 8y agoI'm way into golf and on the golf subreddit, there are regularly people who show up who ask about their chances of going pro as a 20-something or 30-something, and a chorus of people will respond that all pro golfers have tremendous natural ability (which may well be true) and that if you aren't already a great golfer without really practicing, you're not going to make it. But every account I've ever read of a pro golfer's childhood (and I've probably read at least a dozen), indicates that almost without exception, they got obsessed with golf at a young age and every day they didn't have school, would get dropped off at the course in the morning when their parents went to work and practice until their parents picked them up on their way home from work. They got in a staggering amount of practice by the time they were teenagers, but because it happened utterly out of the limelight and was mostly unstructured, people chalk up their teenage virtuosity to "natural talent."
- ryandrake 8y agoIt’s like the old sports coach’s expression: “You don’t need talent in order to practice!” Outside of super-rare outliers, I don’t personally believe that anyone is born with natural talent for anything. When someone is highly skilled at something, I will assume that they spent tons of obsessive time learning and practicing rather than that they tried it one day and found they were magically good at it.
- oblib 8y agoThe connection of savant syndrome to brain injuries is interesting as well. There are some links in the article to be followed. This one has links to additional info: https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-syndrome/ https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-...
- fizx 8y agoThis seems explainable. Humans typically learn art like GANs learn. We start as children making things and the adults, teachers, etc start grading and encouraging/discouraging us, providing the feedback we learn from. As we grow up, we all to some degree learn what art we like, and what good art is. But some people learn this better than others, and some people learn more finely tuned discrimination than others. One doesn't need to be an artist to have good taste. It seems like if you are a non-artistic adult who learned exceptional taste, then you are held back by only technique and creativity. If you are creative and/or lucky when you first decide to try to make something, even without technique you'll make much more progress than the average person. Then, so encouraged by the progress, you'll focus obsessively on technique and improvement. Once it starts, this learning process can proceed much more quickly than the typical child learning process, because it doesn't have to wait for others to provide the feedback. Et voila, adult sudden savant.
- pnathan 8y agoFascinating. It would be interesting to learn whether there was prior exposure to, e.g., music theory that allowed the unfolding in the mind later on in life.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- _Microft 8y agoFunny, I've been wondering for years if something similar would be possible intentionally. Like deliberately adding relaxation and concentration to a new activity and at the same time becoming devoid of the conviction that one shouldn't be able to do what one currently does. Doing it instead of trying to do it.
- romwell 8y agoThe example with the musician (the case of K.A) in the article doesn't support the "suddenly" part of the title. Specifically, that person knew how to play a bunch of songs on the piano - it just didn't click for him until a certain point in life. If anything, that seems like something was missing from his picture that should have already been there. As in - not seeing the forest behind the tree for a while. It's not a sudden development, it's the opposite. Of course someone who can play popular music has some form of understanding of basic music theory (chords, harmony, voicing, structure - etc). Just like someone who has been coding for a while has some form of understanding of things like data structures, loop invariants, computational complexity, etc. even if they haven't formally learned them first. "Whereas he could play simple popular songs from rote memory before", the article says - well, at that point he already was a musician, even if he didn't know what the hell he was doing. But that's how anybody learns - you do some activity quite a few times, then you start seeing the patterns, then it clicks and becomes your nature. That's why you have exercises - in music, math, science, dance, sport, languag - anything that people learn. The surprising part is not how sudden the epiphany of seeing the structure came, but rather how awfully long it took and how far he got without seeing the structure. It's like being able to write down the first 50 terms of the Fibonacci sequence (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, ...) from sheer memorization only, and only seeing the pattern that makes everything simple after doing it for years for fun. Must've been awfully difficult. ------------------------ TL;DR: the K.A. example doesn't seem unusual or "sudden" - more like connecting the dots one day.
- xraystyle 8y agoI don't think that's really it at all. Most of us have to sit in classrooms for months or read and study to understand the intricacies of music theory. None of that is necessary to learning a few pop songs on a guitar or piano. You can learn to play songs purely through muscle memory as long as you have a basic sense of rhythm. That doesn't mean you understand anything about musical composition, scales, chords, modes or anything else that underlies what you're playing. The epiphany described in this case seems like it's suddenly and intuitively understanding all of that, in addition to the layout of the piano (why it takes the form that it does) along with the ability to actually play the thing competently. I've been playing music for years. I understand a good chunk of theory. I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any stretch, but I understand the layout of the piano. I can't play the damn thing. Waking up one morning and having that ability would certainly be surprising.
- RickJWagner 8y agoThat's incredible! It gives us all the gift of something to hope for.
- k8t 8y agoThis happens because the players outside the simulation purchased an in-game upgrade.
- fapjacks 8y agoYou mean they purchased enough loot boxes to unlock the in-game upgrade.
- OldHand2018 8y agoThis is fascinating. A few years ago I had a "sudden" musical accomplishment that overlapped with some medical issues. After reading the article, I asked Good Old Dr. Google about my medical condition and the Central Nervous System and... There are some published papers describing some observed links between them. To be clear, I am in no way, shape or form a savant at anything. Comparing me to these people mentioned would be folly. In my late teens and early twenties, I tried quite a bit to play the guitar and was never very good and I definitely could never sing and strum at the same time. I never touched a guitar again for nearly 20 years until my wife signed me up for a local folk music class. At the very first lesson, I sang and strummed as if it was naturally easy for me, until my fingers were so sore I couldn't make chords anymore. Certainly nobody is going to be paying money to hear me play, but I've received quite a few compliments about how well I do.
- emp 8y agoWho is judging the skill of these sudden savants? Aside from code, I draw and paint well (art school) and have built my own furniture. I know I am far from an expert. However to people who's last artistic endeavour was finger painting as a kid, my skills appear expert. I don't think they could tell apart the skill of a real practicing artist vs me, they have no foundation to judge from. One day I want to take off 3 months, and lose myself in learning to play the piano, 4+ hours a day. I suspect I will be pretty good at the end, but judged as far better a player than I really am!
- jancsika 8y agoFrom what I've read and heard, it's pretty advanced stuff. In some of the clips I've listened to they'll hear a random excerpt of Romantic period music (say, 20 seconds worth), and the person will immediately play it back on the piano at tempo. Now, if you played back the intro to Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata, would the savant give the full duration to that tied dotted sixteenth note from the first chord? Could they play back the first page of Ligeti's tempo fugue etude? I'm not sure, but what they do is already well beyond what even trained professional musicians can achieve. Digression-- our idea of what constitutes "advanced" can get a little out of hand with myths that have been handed down over the years. Even Mozart "cheated" every now and then. One contemporaneous composer noted that when he requested that (child) Mozart sight read a difficult piano sonata, Mozart improvised the development section because it was too difficult to sight read it.
- lawnchair_larry 8y agoIn at least one case I’m aware of, it’s the savants themselves. Treffert wants his pet theory to be true so badly that self-attestation is enough for him to count you.
- jancsika 8y agoI think the article makes "epiphany" sound rather extraordinary. But in the normal course of learning music there are plenty of them which we tend to ignore for some reason. For example: if you learned to ride a bike as a kid, you'll remember a moment where your balance just "locked in" and there you were riding for an arbitrary amount of time. Now take twelve-bar blues on the piano: say you spend some weeks or months learning some bass patterns in your left hand. Maybe you learn a simple melody for the right hand. Then you put them together. Then you learn a few "riffs" for the right hand. If you keep practicing consistently, at some point you develop your coordination in your left hand to the point that you've got a steady rhythm in the bass line. And you won't stop playing that bass line even if you mess up in the right hand. No longer are you merely practicing the parts that go into playing the blues, you are practicing playing the blues by actually playing the blues. And each time you play a chorus, you have aural feedback you can use to decide whether the things you played in your right hand are worthwhile or undesirable. You can even play a thing which you did not intend that turns out to work, and use it later. Essentially, you can now cycle through the blues form an arbitrary number of times. That's an epiphany, and it feels the same as the moment you learn to cycle an arbitrary number of times on a bicycle. There are similar epiphanies when learning to construct a melody over a pentatonic scale, and an even stronger one when learning how to construct a melody over an octatonic scale. Those moments are so intense that a lot of musicians end up just stopping there because it's so much fun.
- sillysaurus3 8y agoIt's remarkable how similar this is to learning programming. Anyone remember the lightbulb moment of grokking pointers? And there you were writing C for an arbitrary amount of time t for 0 < t < need for sleep. React devs probably have a moment when react suddenly makes sense. In all four cases (bicycling, music, pointers, react) what makes the difference is dogged persistence. One day you'll wake up and things will seem simple -- and the next challenge impossible. Rise and repeat.
- hobolord 8y agohow long does it take for react to make sense?
- js2 8y agoSemi-related, this recent Radiolab episode: > Anne Adams was a brilliant biologist. But when her son Alex was in a bad car accident, she decided to stay home to help him recover. And then, rather suddenly, she decided to quit science altogether and become a full-time artist. After that, her husband Robert Adams tells us, she just painted and painted and painted. First houses and buildings, then a series of paintings involving strawberries, and then ... "Bolero." > At some point, Anne became obsessed with Maurice Ravel's famous composition and decided to put an elaborate visual rendition of the song to canvas. She called it "Unraveling Bolero." But at the time, she had no idea that both she and Ravel would themselves unravel shortly after their experiences with this odd piece of music. Arbie Orenstein tells us what happened to Ravel after he wrote "Bolero," and neurologist Bruce Miller helps us understand how, for both Anne and Ravel, "Bolero" might have been the first symptom of a deadly disease. https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/1/39/346188 https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/1/39/346188 https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/unraveling-bolero https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/unraveling-bolero
- chris_wot 8y agoUh, is this a draft of the article? What is with the "Combine paragraphs" and "detail[derail?]"?
- 8bitsrule 8y agoOur minds are driven, pattern-finding engines. Much of what we 'discover' is done 'behind the scenes'. E.g. 'he woke up with the answer'. Many musicians have related how they learned how to 'channel' ... open themselves to write-down or perform 'incoming transmissions' as it were. Shouldn't surprise us too much. How often do we start talking about something - at length - without prior deliberation ... as if we just opened a valve? It's as if, once the engine has 'figured out' the patterns, we just ... turn it on.
- mceoin 8y agoA family member of mine went from speaking only English to learning 11+ foreign languages once given exposure. No leading indicators this would have been the outcome.
- lawnchair_larry 8y agoTreffert has come up before, and he is bogus. He’s the only one who acknowledges “sudden savant syndrome”, which he made up. I know someone on his list, and I know how that person got on his list. By emailing him, and claiming that after he hit his head, he was a savant. That’s it.
- Mikhail_Edoshin 8y agoThere's a book "Drawing on the Right Side of Your Brain" where the author shows before and after self-portraits made by students who attended her five-day (40 hours) drawing course. The difference is immense -- childish drawings before and good realistic portraits after. And she shows the whole group, not just a few prodigies. The whole idea of the book is that drawing is not hard -- the hard thing is to see what is in front of your eyes as opposed to what you mind thinks you're supposed to see. (And this, of course, applies not only to drawing.)
- dr_teh 8y agoMy dad's second wife could draw photorealistically with a pencil from looking at something. She never practiced, never had training, never even showed any enthusiasm for it. It was one of the most soul-crushing things to witness that. She once drew some animals in my notebook and at school the teachers grabbed it out of my hand and wanted to move me to an art academy. When I told them who actually drew it, and how, they were utterly speechless. Imagine someone drawing monochrome photorealism as casually as scribbling some stick figures. She couldn't draw anything that she didn't see, but she didn't show any understanding of how incredible that ability is either. And she's now an accountant... Unfortunately this was 15 years ago or I'd add one of the drawings. But here is something similar (even the detail on the hair): http://www.remrovsartwork.com/uploads/7/9/8/3/7983811/3801630_orig.jpg http://www.remrovsartwork.com/uploads/7/9/8/3/7983811/380163...