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I think it's a bit much to ask a group of tourists that includes children, the elderly, possibly the disabled, all not wearing life jackets, to evacuate out the

I think it's a bit much to ask a group of tourists that includes children, the elderly, possibly the disabled, all not wearing life jackets, to evacuate out the windows into open water as the ceiling comes down on them. That's not something you can reasonably expect to happen in a matter of seconds.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago
Sure, but that's not the issue right? These things have apparently been running for decades and are hugely popular in some areas. This article seems to have tried to drag up every single incident it could that involved them, even including random normal traffic collisions. But relative to length and frequency of usage, there weren't many incidents. Put another way these things seem to be incredibly safe on average, but certainly when something goes wrong it's going to be make for good headlines because it's so awful. But beyond that, it seems like even when something does go wrong you certainly have good chances if you're a decent swimmer. Though perhaps this incident would be an exception, it looks like they were out in the water during a serious storm - which is completely idiotic in any sort of small water boat.
- learc83 8y ago
  Read the NTSB report from 1999. They recommend the canopies be removed because the boats can sink in as little as 15 seconds. They ride very low in the water and there are multiple reports of canopies pulling people under. Most of them have windows or plastic sheeting that can (and was in the Missouri case) be closed in the case of rain or cold weather. The coast guard also recommends not wearing life jackets while inside because in one documented inncident people wearing life jackets floated to the top and got stuck under the canopy.
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    You need to consider rates for things. "Multiple reports" means absolutely nothing when you're talking about something that's been running for decades for one can only imagine how many total millions of hours or whatever other metric you want to use. For instance you can find that thousands of people have been killed because of seat belts or air bags. But these things don't really matter because the rate of incidence is extremely low. Perhaps also a bad example on my part as they also save lives when they work, but you can pick practically anything -- given a large enough sample, you'll find people manage to die to just about everything. My favorite is Isadora Duncan - a celebrity, no less! So the key question is what is the incident rate here? Given the most condemning data we have is "multiple reports" over 2 decades, that sounds like a pretty good baseline for 'extremely safe.' ---- Also, can you please provide evidence of even just a single duck boat with windows? I just tried pretty hard to find even a single one, and failed. But yeah, velcro or drop sheets are of course part of the system. And again those are designed to be able to be rapidly removed.
    - learc83 8y ago
      >Given the most condemning data we have is "multiple reports" over 2 decades, that sounds like a pretty good baseline for 'extremely safe.' The most condemning data we as armchair sleuths have is that the NTSB who did have all the data on incident rates opened an investigation in 1999. They concluded that the boats weren't safe. They recommended that they be retrofitted with reserve buoyancy, that electric bill pumps be installed (so that bilge pumps keep working when the engine is swamped), and that the canopies be removed or replaced with coast guard approved canopies that allow for easy escape. >Also, can you please provide evidence of even just a single duck boat with windows? I just tried pretty hard to find even a single one, and failed. But yeah, velcro or drop sheets are of course part of the system. And again those are designed to be able to be rapidly removed. https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/07/22/PSPR/90431ecf-5863-4ec0-be8c-89391bd4fdb9-tDuck_memorial00055.jpg?crop=4388,3269,x251,y0&width=520&height=390&fit=bounds https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/07/22/PSPR/90431ecf-... Those were on the Missouri boat that sank. They can be electronically raised and lowered by the captain [1]. They don't look like they are easy to remove without the captain raising them. From watching video taken inside, they don't appear to be held on by something easy to remove like velcro. According to eye witness reports they weren't able to easily escape through the windows. "Keller said her daughter made it clear that the canopy was on and the windows were sealed." "They were all closed," Keller said her daughter told her. "The windows were closed and the top was on." "It was so hard to get out of the boat, Mom. It was so hard to get out of the boat."[2] You also have designs like this: https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2504521/180720-miss-majestic-accident-al-1153_13391f61ec5f548810895557acd3ddb2.fit-760w.jpg https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2504521/18072... Where the window openings are too narrow to allow for quick escape. Especially considering how low in the water they ride and how quickly they sink. 1. https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article215235950.html https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article215235950.html 2. https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article215257665.html https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article215257...
      - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        I increasingly feel like I'm playing Where's Waldo when it comes to digging out facts in between appeals to emotion in media articles. Your articles confirm that the "windows" are plastic curtains which one individual described as being difficult for children or elderly to open. The canopy was also detachable, and was detached, during the incident. And before diverging too much, the point I was getting at here is that these incidents seem to be extremely rare relative to the usage of these vehicles. And (at risk of hijacking my own point, again) in this case the major problem was not the boat itself, but a captain bringing his passengers out into a very severe storm - with possible wind speeds in excess of 60 mph in the exact lake they were going into. And the warning was released before they even entered the water. That's enough to wreck any small water vehicle. And the captain also did not tell the passengers to put on their life vests even when telling them this was the worst storm he'd ever seen. He probably did not want to start a panic but, at least in hindsight, that was another bad judgement call on his part. It'll be up to the courts to decide if that judgement entered into the realm of negligence.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

Sure, but that's not the issue right? These things have apparently been running for decades and are hugely popular in some areas. This article seems to have tried to drag up every single incident it could that involved them, even including random normal traffic collisions. But relative to length and frequency of usage, there weren't many incidents. Put another way these things seem to be incredibly safe on average, but certainly when something goes wrong it's going to be make for good headlines because it's so awful. But beyond that, it seems like even when something does go wrong you certainly have good chances if you're a decent swimmer. Though perhaps this incident would be an exception, it looks like they were out in the water during a serious storm - which is completely idiotic in any sort of small water boat.

learc83 8y ago
Read the NTSB report from 1999. They recommend the canopies be removed because the boats can sink in as little as 15 seconds. They ride very low in the water and there are multiple reports of canopies pulling people under. Most of them have windows or plastic sheeting that can (and was in the Missouri case) be closed in the case of rain or cold weather. The coast guard also recommends not wearing life jackets while inside because in one documented inncident people wearing life jackets floated to the top and got stuck under the canopy.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  You need to consider rates for things. "Multiple reports" means absolutely nothing when you're talking about something that's been running for decades for one can only imagine how many total millions of hours or whatever other metric you want to use. For instance you can find that thousands of people have been killed because of seat belts or air bags. But these things don't really matter because the rate of incidence is extremely low. Perhaps also a bad example on my part as they also save lives when they work, but you can pick practically anything -- given a large enough sample, you'll find people manage to die to just about everything. My favorite is Isadora Duncan - a celebrity, no less! So the key question is what is the incident rate here? Given the most condemning data we have is "multiple reports" over 2 decades, that sounds like a pretty good baseline for 'extremely safe.' ---- Also, can you please provide evidence of even just a single duck boat with windows? I just tried pretty hard to find even a single one, and failed. But yeah, velcro or drop sheets are of course part of the system. And again those are designed to be able to be rapidly removed.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >Given the most condemning data we have is "multiple reports" over 2 decades, that sounds like a pretty good baseline for 'extremely safe.' The most condemning data we as armchair sleuths have is that the NTSB who did have all the data on incident rates opened an investigation in 1999. They concluded that the boats weren't safe. They recommended that they be retrofitted with reserve buoyancy, that electric bill pumps be installed (so that bilge pumps keep working when the engine is swamped), and that the canopies be removed or replaced with coast guard approved canopies that allow for easy escape. >Also, can you please provide evidence of even just a single duck boat with windows? I just tried pretty hard to find even a single one, and failed. But yeah, velcro or drop sheets are of course part of the system. And again those are designed to be able to be rapidly removed. https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/07/22/PSPR/90431ecf-5863-4ec0-be8c-89391bd4fdb9-tDuck_memorial00055.jpg?crop=4388,3269,x251,y0&width=520&height=390&fit=bounds https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/07/22/PSPR/90431ecf-... Those were on the Missouri boat that sank. They can be electronically raised and lowered by the captain [1]. They don't look like they are easy to remove without the captain raising them. From watching video taken inside, they don't appear to be held on by something easy to remove like velcro. According to eye witness reports they weren't able to easily escape through the windows. "Keller said her daughter made it clear that the canopy was on and the windows were sealed." "They were all closed," Keller said her daughter told her. "The windows were closed and the top was on." "It was so hard to get out of the boat, Mom. It was so hard to get out of the boat."[2] You also have designs like this: https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2504521/180720-miss-majestic-accident-al-1153_13391f61ec5f548810895557acd3ddb2.fit-760w.jpg https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2504521/18072... Where the window openings are too narrow to allow for quick escape. Especially considering how low in the water they ride and how quickly they sink. 1. https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article215235950.html https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article215235950.html 2. https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article215257665.html https://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article215257...
    - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
      I increasingly feel like I'm playing Where's Waldo when it comes to digging out facts in between appeals to emotion in media articles. Your articles confirm that the "windows" are plastic curtains which one individual described as being difficult for children or elderly to open. The canopy was also detachable, and was detached, during the incident. And before diverging too much, the point I was getting at here is that these incidents seem to be extremely rare relative to the usage of these vehicles. And (at risk of hijacking my own point, again) in this case the major problem was not the boat itself, but a captain bringing his passengers out into a very severe storm - with possible wind speeds in excess of 60 mph in the exact lake they were going into. And the warning was released before they even entered the water. That's enough to wreck any small water vehicle. And the captain also did not tell the passengers to put on their life vests even when telling them this was the worst storm he'd ever seen. He probably did not want to start a panic but, at least in hindsight, that was another bad judgement call on his part. It'll be up to the courts to decide if that judgement entered into the realm of negligence.