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I love the idea of doing things to prevent more suffering. “Despite the fact that violence has always been present, the world does not have to accept it as an
by DanielBMarkham 8y ago
I love the idea of doing things to prevent more suffering.
“Despite the fact that violence has always been present, the world does not have to accept it as an inevitable part of the human condition,” says the WHO guidance on violence prevention.
But this is bullshit. Humans are a violent species. Always have been, always will be. The only question that's relevant is: when is it acceptable that violence be used? Ideally it would be a bare minimum, and by people who have nothing to benefit from it. If there's a crack house with a kid that needs rescuing, or a bank robbery gone bad with a hostage, I want somebody somewhere to be using violence.
Public health approaches to social problems are interesting, both because they have some statistically significant benefit -- and because they tend to over-generalize what the problems are and leave out many important edge cases. You can't say they're bad because there is progress to be shown. But you always wonder how many edge cases were overlooked and if overall we aren't institutionalizing a hardcore subset that will never be solved at the expense of making the problem simple enough to mentally engage with.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoBut this is bullshit. Humans are a violent species I would frame it as: Life is challenging and the world is not a nice place. If you succeeded in completely removing all aggression from the species, we would soon go extinct. So managing such tendencies and channeling them constructively is a necessity. Our very survival depends on not being completely rid of such traits. We want to be civilized, not "domesticated" like sheep waiting for slaughter.
- DanielBMarkham 8y agoI don't disagree with that framing. I think it's probably much better than mine. We want the maximum amount of peaceful diversity we can have both as individuals and as small social groups. It's a prerequisite for survival, as you point out. I am concerned that we tend to look at problems top-down, in simplistic language and jargon. This almost always leads to a call for more homogenization of the species. That's a survival risk for us.
- DoreenMichele 8y agoA man of peace must be strong. -- Kung Fu
- posting2fast 8y ago> If you succeeded in completely removing all aggression from the species, we would soon go extinct. Why? Because sabre tooth tigers would eat us? What does aggression even mean, in this context? When someone kicks a homeless person to death, that's aggression. If you step in, and become violent if necessary, is that aggression too in your mind? That's the first time I hear that. From Merriam-Webster: > 1. a forceful action or procedure (such as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master > 2. the practice of making attacks or encroachments; especially: unprovoked violation by one country of the territorial integrity of another > 3. hostile, injurious, or destructive behavior or outlook especially when caused by frustration What is that good for? You don't even need any of that to defend against any of it. Call it aggression or violence, saying it is needed because only it can defend against itself makes no sense. Just as the claim that we have these dark urges we need to somehow "channel" never really held water IMO, it just gets repeated because it comforts people in their complacency or even guilt.
- tremon 8y agoHumans are a violent species. If this were true, then how come daycare centers and nurseries don't have to deal with violent toddlers all day long? By your premise, our violence is genetic, so infants must be taught to control their violence in order to become succesful adults. At what stage of development does that happen?
- mantas 8y agoOh they do. Talk to kindergarten staff or school teachers.. And teaching them to deal with their violence and solve their issues in a cooperative way is their job #1 Source: GF used to work in kindergarten and now works in school
- pjc50 8y agoKids can independently rediscover violence as soon as they're old enough to control their limbs. It's something that does need to be trained out of people, and resurfaces when people are in impaired states.
- Ensorceled 8y agoUmm, most toddlers must be taught that hitting is wrong. As someone with more than 40 younger cousins, it’s kind of the only thing they all had in common.
- albertgoeswoof 8y agoHumans are not a violent species by any measure. Humans have evolved to produce social structures that mitigate the need for violence in all circumstances. When you talk about violence being a positivie in solving a bank robberies, you should be talking about how to prevent bank robberies in the first place, rather than designing a solution that presumes the robbery is going to happen no matter what. Violence has no place in human society, and we have appropriate solutions in place if a human wants to express similar emotions to violence (eg by playing sport, video games etc) that have net positive effects on society.
- kingofhdds 8y ago>Humans have evolved to produce social structures that mitigate the need for violence in all circumstances. It doesn't contradict the notion "humans are violent". Social structures are often used to prevail collectively in conflicts, often violent, and one may say that's why they evolved.
- aalleavitch 8y agoYet increasingly these conflicts are resolved non-violently. Conflict is inevitable. Violence is not.
- vorpalhex 8y ago> When you talk about violence being a positivie in solving a bank robberies, you should be talking about how to prevent bank robberies in the first place, rather than designing a solution that presumes the robbery is going to happen no matter what. That's easy to say when you're not the one being held hostage in the bank robbery! We shouldn't learn to debug code or mitigate downtime either, we should just write code without bugs...
- aalleavitch 8y ago> But this is bullshit. Humans are a violent species. Always have been, always will be. Humans are a flightless species. Always have been, always will be. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm late for my flight.