4 ms·

The Nawaz issue was far from an open and shut case for one thing, I'll just leave it at that for the moment. As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its

The Nawaz issue was far from an open and shut case for one thing, I'll just leave it at that for the moment. As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its important to point out that while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power. From Viktor Orban to Christian Strache to Salvimini to Trump (specifically Bannon, Anton, Miller, etc) we're seeing a very real spectrum of white supremacist leaders winning power. Salvimini literally said there needs to be a "cleansing" of Roma in Italy. If Facebook wants to facilitate that, so be it, but its on them if they do. Its important for them to recognize the social impact of the choices they make. There is no real world equivalence between Viktor Orban and Louis Farrakhan and treating them the same is democratically suicidal.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its important to point out that while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power. By the time a group is anywhere near power, deplatforming is a protest move rather than something which has much direct effect. So that's not really a reason NOI should be less subject to deplatforming than groups of similarly repugnant ideology that are, if not in power, at least aligned with it.
- dtornabene 8y ago
  we're talking about real, measurable effects in this world, right now. NOI is a fringe cult at this point, white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. Its not theoretical, its not a thought experiment. NOI isn't dictating policy stripping children from the parents or sending people to their deaths, or threatening countries with nuclear annihilation. Its angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin to postulate a future where Louis Farrakhan needs to be dealt with by a Facebook or a Twitter. I'm saying this as a Jew, who despises NOI.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. No it's not. Whites are the most accepting cultural group in the world.
    - vkou 8y ago
      'White supremacists' is not a long-winded way of saying 'all white people.'
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    winning power? on which planet? because it is certainly not happening on Earth unless you are severly misinformed.
    - dtornabene 8y ago
      cool story man. Did you know that the party in power in Hungary has had members publicly muse about drawing up lists of Jews? What about in Austria where the prime minister just closed down 7 mosques? How about the examples I listed above, specifically Italy, where the the lead politician from the junior partner in the coalition talks about "cleansing" Roma from Italy "street by street, house by house"? Here, have some links https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/08/italy-fascists-macerata-berlusconi https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/08/italy-... https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italian-jews-finally-take-stand-against-far-right-pro-israel-parties-1.6302183 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italian-j... https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italy-s-dangerous-flirtation-with-fascism-1.6195806 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italy-s-d... https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/opinions/italian-elections-future-opinion-ben-ghiat/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/opinions/italian-elections-fu... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/03/driver-opens-fire-african-migrants-italian-city-macerata https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/03/driver-opens-f... https://www.thedailybeast.com/europes-fascists-are-back-but-they-never-really-died https://www.thedailybeast.com/europes-fascists-are-back-but-... This stuff isn't exactly hidden. I mean, Golden Dawn in Greece very nearly took power, with the help of the police and parts of the military. Fidez, the party in power in Hungary, is openly white supremacist, as is Jobbik, their nearest electoral competitor. Christian Strache, who I noted above, is literally in power, and a member of a reconstructed fascist political party. Lega Nord, the junior partner in the Italian coalition mentioned above is also a reconstructed fascist party. There's also the AfD, which is also a fascist descended party, which controls a third of the German parliament. Or the Front Nationale which has come breath-taking close to Presidential power in the first round of the French elections several times now, leading, this last time to Macrons victory. Front National was founded by a holocaust denier, vichyite collaborator, and open anti-semite. Not sure what planet you're looking at, but its not this one.
krrrh 8y ago
To be transparent on this issue, I lean towards a more open platform that takes steps to stop algorithmically promoting hate "accidentally" while they are measuring engagement. A "first do no harm" approach would be a nice start. The humanitarian disaster and division they have contributed to in Myanmar is a great case-in-point. > The Nawaz issue was far from an open and shut case for one thing, I'll just leave it at that I brought it up to show how arbitrary a list of extremist thinkers can become. Very few would think it appropriate to ban Nawaz or the Quilliam foundation from Facebook, but you could see how a social media site would be motivated to outsource its list of extremists to a third party and cause a lot of problems for itself and civil discourse in general. > As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR This was a convenient point of comparison because Metzger has spoken at NOI events. Forgive me for making it concisely. Sometimes guilt-by-association is enough, and I think you'll agree that cavorting with Metzger meets that criteria. > while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power You're calling on Facebook to make two evaluations now. First, is a group advocating an unacceptable or abhorrent viewpoint, and secondly are they successful enough at it to warrant their removal from the platform? If NOI were resurgent again, as they were in the 90s, or ran candidates in some local elections, would it then justify a ban from Facebook? It's even harder to evaluate an concept like power, and when a group has too much of it, than it is to evaluate what is acceptable speech. One could point out that there are are major recording artists (many of the best actually) and politicians who have an ongoing relationship with Farrakhan [1][2]. He can definitely raise large crowds on a regular basis much more effectively than Richard Spencer's pathetic 200-people annual conferences. Incidentally, Farrakhan made overtures to Spencer and the alt-right earlier this year too [3]. > There is no real world equivalence between Viktor Orban and Louis Farrakhan I never suggested that there was, and there's no shortage of things to criticize Orban over, but if you're proposing that Facebook should ban the Prime Minister of Hungary, you might consider the unintended consequences of such a move. [1] http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-farrakhan-danny-davis-20180307-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edi... [2] https://www.adl.org/blog/farrakhan-receives-support-from-rappers-on-social-media https://www.adl.org/blog/farrakhan-receives-support-from-rap... [3] https://youtu.be/sNveCUCm41Y?t=6082 https://youtu.be/sNveCUCm41Y?t=6082

dragonwriter 8y ago

> As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its important to point out that while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power. By the time a group is anywhere near power, deplatforming is a protest move rather than something which has much direct effect. So that's not really a reason NOI should be less subject to deplatforming than groups of similarly repugnant ideology that are, if not in power, at least aligned with it.

dtornabene 8y ago
we're talking about real, measurable effects in this world, right now. NOI is a fringe cult at this point, white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. Its not theoretical, its not a thought experiment. NOI isn't dictating policy stripping children from the parents or sending people to their deaths, or threatening countries with nuclear annihilation. Its angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin to postulate a future where Louis Farrakhan needs to be dealt with by a Facebook or a Twitter. I'm saying this as a Jew, who despises NOI.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. No it's not. Whites are the most accepting cultural group in the world.
  - vkou 8y ago
    'White supremacists' is not a long-winded way of saying 'all white people.'
- ekianjo 8y ago
  winning power? on which planet? because it is certainly not happening on Earth unless you are severly misinformed.
  - dtornabene 8y ago
    cool story man. Did you know that the party in power in Hungary has had members publicly muse about drawing up lists of Jews? What about in Austria where the prime minister just closed down 7 mosques? How about the examples I listed above, specifically Italy, where the the lead politician from the junior partner in the coalition talks about "cleansing" Roma from Italy "street by street, house by house"? Here, have some links https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/08/italy-fascists-macerata-berlusconi https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/08/italy-... https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italian-jews-finally-take-stand-against-far-right-pro-israel-parties-1.6302183 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italian-j... https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italy-s-dangerous-flirtation-with-fascism-1.6195806 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-italy-s-d... https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/opinions/italian-elections-future-opinion-ben-ghiat/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/opinions/italian-elections-fu... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/03/driver-opens-fire-african-migrants-italian-city-macerata https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/03/driver-opens-f... https://www.thedailybeast.com/europes-fascists-are-back-but-they-never-really-died https://www.thedailybeast.com/europes-fascists-are-back-but-... This stuff isn't exactly hidden. I mean, Golden Dawn in Greece very nearly took power, with the help of the police and parts of the military. Fidez, the party in power in Hungary, is openly white supremacist, as is Jobbik, their nearest electoral competitor. Christian Strache, who I noted above, is literally in power, and a member of a reconstructed fascist political party. Lega Nord, the junior partner in the Italian coalition mentioned above is also a reconstructed fascist party. There's also the AfD, which is also a fascist descended party, which controls a third of the German parliament. Or the Front Nationale which has come breath-taking close to Presidential power in the first round of the French elections several times now, leading, this last time to Macrons victory. Front National was founded by a holocaust denier, vichyite collaborator, and open anti-semite. Not sure what planet you're looking at, but its not this one.

krrrh 8y ago

To be transparent on this issue, I lean towards a more open platform that takes steps to stop algorithmically promoting hate "accidentally" while they are measuring engagement. A "first do no harm" approach would be a nice start. The humanitarian disaster and division they have contributed to in Myanmar is a great case-in-point. > The Nawaz issue was far from an open and shut case for one thing, I'll just leave it at that I brought it up to show how arbitrary a list of extremist thinkers can become. Very few would think it appropriate to ban Nawaz or the Quilliam foundation from Facebook, but you could see how a social media site would be motivated to outsource its list of extremists to a third party and cause a lot of problems for itself and civil discourse in general. > As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR This was a convenient point of comparison because Metzger has spoken at NOI events. Forgive me for making it concisely. Sometimes guilt-by-association is enough, and I think you'll agree that cavorting with Metzger meets that criteria. > while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power You're calling on Facebook to make two evaluations now. First, is a group advocating an unacceptable or abhorrent viewpoint, and secondly are they successful enough at it to warrant their removal from the platform? If NOI were resurgent again, as they were in the 90s, or ran candidates in some local elections, would it then justify a ban from Facebook? It's even harder to evaluate an concept like power, and when a group has too much of it, than it is to evaluate what is acceptable speech. One could point out that there are are major recording artists (many of the best actually) and politicians who have an ongoing relationship with Farrakhan [1][2]. He can definitely raise large crowds on a regular basis much more effectively than Richard Spencer's pathetic 200-people annual conferences. Incidentally, Farrakhan made overtures to Spencer and the alt-right earlier this year too [3]. > There is no real world equivalence between Viktor Orban and Louis Farrakhan I never suggested that there was, and there's no shortage of things to criticize Orban over, but if you're proposing that Facebook should ban the Prime Minister of Hungary, you might consider the unintended consequences of such a move. [1] http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-farrakhan-danny-davis-20180307-story.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edi... [2] https://www.adl.org/blog/farrakhan-receives-support-from-rappers-on-social-media https://www.adl.org/blog/farrakhan-receives-support-from-rap... [3] https://youtu.be/sNveCUCm41Y?t=6082 https://youtu.be/sNveCUCm41Y?t=6082