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There are mealy-mouthed refrains on all sides of this issue. For instance, I would be happy to see Tom Metzger and his White American Resistance group banned fr

by krrrh 8y ago

There are mealy-mouthed refrains on all sides of this issue. For instance, I would be happy to see Tom Metzger and his White American Resistance group banned from Facebook, however the core of his white ethno-nationalist agenda isn’t too different from the black ethno-nationalism espoused by Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. In fact Tom Metzger has been invited to talk at NOI events and collaborated with their leadership in the past. Banning NOI on Facebook would cause an uproar, but a consistent policy would require it. A lot of organizations who want to ban certain groups but don’t want to have an entire department adjudicating culture would like to rely on outside groups for certification. But even once-august groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center can lose the plot, as they did when they recently and perplexingly called liberal Muslim reformer Majid Nawaz an anti-Muslim extremist (they had to settle a lawsuit with him and issue an apology). [1] I’m not saying that a company like Facebook shouldn’t take sides at all, but you can certainly see the attraction of a simple open platform doctrine once you get into the weeds. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/maajid-nawaz-splc-anti-muslim-extremist/505685/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/ma...

ashleyn 8y ago
The two of these groups advocate subjugation of minority demographics at their best, genocide at their worst. It doesn't matter who says it. Taking a stand against these ideas and refusing to support these ideas is ethically clear.
jordigh 8y ago
Bad people on many sides... on many sides!
dtornabene 8y ago
The Nawaz issue was far from an open and shut case for one thing, I'll just leave it at that for the moment. As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its important to point out that while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power. From Viktor Orban to Christian Strache to Salvimini to Trump (specifically Bannon, Anton, Miller, etc) we're seeing a very real spectrum of white supremacist leaders winning power. Salvimini literally said there needs to be a "cleansing" of Roma in Italy. If Facebook wants to facilitate that, so be it, but its on them if they do. Its important for them to recognize the social impact of the choices they make. There is no real world equivalence between Viktor Orban and Louis Farrakhan and treating them the same is democratically suicidal.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its important to point out that while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power. By the time a group is anywhere near power, deplatforming is a protest move rather than something which has much direct effect. So that's not really a reason NOI should be less subject to deplatforming than groups of similarly repugnant ideology that are, if not in power, at least aligned with it.
  - dtornabene 8y ago
    we're talking about real, measurable effects in this world, right now. NOI is a fringe cult at this point, white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. Its not theoretical, its not a thought experiment. NOI isn't dictating policy stripping children from the parents or sending people to their deaths, or threatening countries with nuclear annihilation. Its angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin to postulate a future where Louis Farrakhan needs to be dealt with by a Facebook or a Twitter. I'm saying this as a Jew, who despises NOI.
    - sheepmullet 8y ago
      > white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. No it's not. Whites are the most accepting cultural group in the world.
      - vkou 8y ago
        'White supremacists' is not a long-winded way of saying 'all white people.'
    - ekianjo 8y ago
      winning power? on which planet? because it is certainly not happening on Earth unless you are severly misinformed.
bduerst 8y ago
NOI is more or less a branch of Scientology now, with much of their antisemitism and sedition activity being from the last century. [1] I get that you're trying to paint an all-sides slippery slope argument for banning hate speech, but this is more of a false equivocation here when comparing to an active Aryan supremacy group. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam#Criticism

by krrrh 8y ago

ashleyn 8y ago

The two of these groups advocate subjugation of minority demographics at their best, genocide at their worst. It doesn't matter who says it. Taking a stand against these ideas and refusing to support these ideas is ethically clear.

jordigh 8y ago

Bad people on many sides... on many sides!

dtornabene 8y ago

The Nawaz issue was far from an open and shut case for one thing, I'll just leave it at that for the moment. As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its important to point out that while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power. From Viktor Orban to Christian Strache to Salvimini to Trump (specifically Bannon, Anton, Miller, etc) we're seeing a very real spectrum of white supremacist leaders winning power. Salvimini literally said there needs to be a "cleansing" of Roma in Italy. If Facebook wants to facilitate that, so be it, but its on them if they do. Its important for them to recognize the social impact of the choices they make. There is no real world equivalence between Viktor Orban and Louis Farrakhan and treating them the same is democratically suicidal.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> As far as the sloppy comparison of NOI and WAR its important to point out that while NOI sucks (really, really) it is not now, has never been and never will be anywhere near power. By the time a group is anywhere near power, deplatforming is a protest move rather than something which has much direct effect. So that's not really a reason NOI should be less subject to deplatforming than groups of similarly repugnant ideology that are, if not in power, at least aligned with it.
- dtornabene 8y ago
  we're talking about real, measurable effects in this world, right now. NOI is a fringe cult at this point, white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. Its not theoretical, its not a thought experiment. NOI isn't dictating policy stripping children from the parents or sending people to their deaths, or threatening countries with nuclear annihilation. Its angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin to postulate a future where Louis Farrakhan needs to be dealt with by a Facebook or a Twitter. I'm saying this as a Jew, who despises NOI.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > white supremacy, white nationalism, whatever particular way you want to frame it, is not just on the march it is winning power in nation states across the world. No it's not. Whites are the most accepting cultural group in the world.
    - vkou 8y ago
      'White supremacists' is not a long-winded way of saying 'all white people.'
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    winning power? on which planet? because it is certainly not happening on Earth unless you are severly misinformed.

bduerst 8y ago

NOI is more or less a branch of Scientology now, with much of their antisemitism and sedition activity being from the last century. [1] I get that you're trying to paint an all-sides slippery slope argument for banning hate speech, but this is more of a false equivocation here when comparing to an active Aryan supremacy group. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam#Criticism