10 ms·

> Following extensive performance testing under numerous workloads, we’ve identified that there is a missing digital key in the firmware that impacts the therma

> Following extensive performance testing under numerous workloads, we’ve identified that there is a missing digital key in the firmware that impacts the thermal management system and could drive clock speeds down under heavy thermal loads on the new MacBook Pro. A bug fix is included in today’s macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 Supplemental Update and is recommended. We apologize to any customer who has experienced less than optimal performance on their new systems. Customers can expect the new 15-inch MacBook Pro to be up to 70% faster, and the 13-inch MacBook Pro with Touch Bar to be up to 2X faster, as shown in the performance results on our website. Any idea what "digital key" could mean here?

jrockway 8y ago
This earlier HN thread has all the details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602146
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  There are no additional details in that thread.
kevindqc 8y ago
Huge performance difference - how did they not notice before?
- sgillen 8y ago
  The article made it seem like this only affected a small number of units? Their quality control probably doesn’t look at every single unit. Although it’s interesting that they didn’t find it at all, since reading HN and reddit gave me the impression it was very widespread.
  - jmull 8y ago
    Generally you can’t get a sense for how widespread an issue is from social media, because it’s a perfect medium for confirmation bias. Confirming links and stories are shared/upvoted/forwarded while non-confirming ones are ignored or dismissed (or outright attacked for some reason).
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      This is basically the story of the modern world as viewed through the distorting lens that is media (and especially social media). I wish people would take the two sentences you wrote and then use them as a corrective lens that undoes this distorted perspective.
      - sgillen 8y ago
        Yeah it’s really hard to correct the perspective to the truth though if all you have is social media. Honestly I’ve been putting less and less trust in almost all my sources of knowledge recently.
        tjr225 8y ago
        It's so, so strange that 10-20 years ago my parents told me not to trust what I read on the internet...and now that they're all using it they have seem forgotten their own advice.
        pokemongoaway 8y ago
        Yes it is exactly the same people that said "you can't trust it because it is 'from the internet'" who still now cling hardest to their trusted source of media.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    I would not trust any coverage of supposed issues with Apple hardware. There is a huge incentive for negative coverage. Remember Antenna-gate with the iPhone 4? They continued selling the iPhone 4, completely unmodified, for years after that whole debacle. That's how widespread the supposed issue was.
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      Apple settled a fairly large lawsuit related to Antennagate and was forced to send out a bumper case to affected users so they could hold the phone the "Jobs" way and get reception rather than the way you would normally hold...literally any other phone before, during, or since Antennagate, including newer iPhone models.
      - reaperducer 8y ago
        TBH, the "Jobs" way was the normal way that most people held a phone. It was the people who smothered the whole handset in some kind of crazy death grip that had attenuation problems. I got my bumper in the mail, but never needed or used it.
        gamblor956 8y ago
        Most of the people I know who had iPhones had issues with the iphone 4 antenna, and only one or two of them are death-grippers. The problem was Apple's poor design, which Apple itself acknowledged by settling the case, offering free bumpers, and redesigning the antenna in future models.
      - toasterlovin 8y ago
        They settled for $15/phone or a free case (they had already offered a free case to customers of their own accord). They kept the iPhone 4 around for 2 years after it was no longer their marquee model. Surely if Antennagate was actually a problem for a significant portion of customers they would have stopped selling it as soon as possible (aka, upon release of the 4S). But they didn't.
  - curiousgal 8y ago
    Not many manufacturers at their scale charge their prices so their QA procedure should be unorthodox as well.
  - opencl 8y ago
    Apple always claims their issues affect a small number of units. I have seen zero people that tested the i9 MBP and did not see major throttling. The issue is clearly the result of a fundamental defect in how they were managing power and thermals.
    - breatheoften 8y ago
      The official explanation seems to be that the key management defect which lead to thermal management problems did not occur in the development machines used during the engineering process. This seems possible as presumably every machine used internally goes through a different provisioning process than those released into customer hands ... Thus the claimed cause of the problem seems to indicate that the flaw did not affect the internal benchmarks they ran. It would be _very_ concerning if the benchmarks they ran for engineering/marketing production were insufficient to catch this issue. I think the official explanation seems pretty likely. If the flaw had been present in the machines used for benchmarking than either their benchmarks didn’t catch the issue (unlikely) or the benchmarking numbers were fabricated which also seems unlikely as it would invite an infeasible amount of legal risk for an organization of apples size and mindshare ...
      - breatheoften 8y ago
        > It would be _very_ concerning if the benchmarks they ran for engineering/marketing production were insufficient to catch this issue. Clarification -- I meant to say -- 'It would be _very_ concerning if the benchmarks they ran for engineering/marketing production were insufficient to catch this issue on a system configuration in which the issue manifests.'
      - temac 8y ago
        Engineering, especially at this level, is not supposed to work like that. You certainly not do dev proto, then switch to prod both in one step and without even rechecking the tests you did on the proto. So their official explanation might be kind of right, but then it shows major deficiencies in their quality process. Which given the track record of quality issues they have had, is possible.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jmole 8y ago
Key, as in key-value pair, perhaps
ggg9990 8y ago
Yikes, pretty bad showing by Apple here. They don't have the leeway that they did when they had Steve Jobs... they have tremendous brand loyalty, but will need to be more careful in the future.
- tomp 8y ago
  > they have tremendous brand loyalty, but will need to be more careful in the future. Does that really matter though? I was just discussing this with someone over the weekend... his thesis was that people buy Apple because of branding, which might be true as far as the majority of customers are concerned... But for people like me (powerusers), MacBooks are simply the best possible choice. Everything else is either adware (Windows 10), or not usable (Linux laptops lack deiver support (last I heard) You can’t install software on Chromebooks, Windows 7 doesn’t have a Unix subsystem). Not to mention that Apple hardware is beyond superior, and the software mostly just works (things like wi-fi, backups, sharing, ...)
  - gaius 8y ago
    Everything else is either adware (Windows 10) I am running Windows 10 Pro on a Surface. I haven’t seen a single ad, anywhere. If that’s your only reason let me set your mind at rest. Surface is a better Mac than a Mac at this point. That’s why I upgraded my old MBP to one rather than a new MBP.
    - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
      The Surface is probably a great Surface, and you might prefer it to a Mac, but a Surface is a terrible Mac, for much the same reason a Mac is a terrible Surface.
      - gaius 8y ago
        As I say, I upgraded my MacBook Pro - for that is what MBP means - to a Surface, so I am quite familiar with both thanks. But by all means ignore my advice and pay through the nose for a device that is blatantly not fit for purpose, I'll be over here enjoying the superior computing experience that Steve Jobs would have wanted me to have!
jarjoura 8y ago
My guess is a sensor requires a signed connection, much like how HDCP works. Seems a bit over-engineered if Apple is building protected sensors, but would also love to hear from someone in the know.
- barbegal 8y ago
  My guess would be that they shipped with an updated firmware version to the one programmed in the factory. It should have upgraded the first time the device is powered on but because of a missing security signature or maybe key to verify a signature, the firmware update wasn't applied. This is still just a guess but signed firmware is becoming much more common.
- gruez 8y ago
  "key" as in dictionary key, not cryptographic key
sschueller 8y ago
I don't see how you can get more cooling with a firmware change when the fans are already going at full speed. Does that mean the whole unit will now run hotter before it starts to throttle? How is this going to impact some of those bad solder joints MacBooks are famous for?
- coldtea 8y ago
  >I don't see how you can get more cooling with a firmware change when the fans are already going at full speed It's not about what you do when the temperature if at its peaks and the fans are going at full speed, it's about how you avoid getting there. >How is this going to impact some of those bad solder joints MacBooks are famous for? When did MacBooks became famous for "bad solder joints"?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Watch a bunch of Louis Rossman YouTube videos. He knows all about the seedy underbelly of Macbook hardware design mistakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AcEt073Uds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AcEt073Uds
    - dpkonofa 8y ago
      A few things that I take issue with here: 1) Louis Rossman has a vested interest in drumming up attention for his videos and has, on multiple occasions, used false statements and misleading practices to do so. Just like in the initial release video of the Touch Bar MBPs where he used an unshielded USB-A to USB-C cable and then complained that WiFi wasn't working. When used with a shielded cable, the issue went away and yet he never issued a correction or retraction. The issue was with the adapter he used, not the computer. Which leads directly to... 2) The issue stated in that video that required reballing was an issue with nVidia chips and affected all laptops that used that platform, both PC and Mac. To suggest that it was an engineering issue on Apple's part is disingenuous and only further reinforces the idea that he's not making these videos to be helpful but to drive traffic to his channel and repairs to his store. 3) Just look at how he used the Linus story to get the repair done at his shop. He has a pattern and, unlike what most people think, it's not altruistic. It's all to benefit him. I don't blame him but let's not pretend that he's doing this because he cares about users or the "right to repair" movement. He cares because he can mislabel and misconstrue the positions of the people against it to benefit his business. He'd love it if Apple was forced to provide him schematics and docs. He's in it for himself.
dogma1138 8y ago
My bet is that sensors don’t output absolute values and you need to use an offset to get the correct “reading” for your thermal profile and cooling. Basically based on the location and type of sensor(s) and your cooling solution you will apply an offset to get the actual temperature to be used for managing the power profile and cooling of the component. This is pretty common and the reason why many apps don’t readout the temperature of newly released components correctly. Ofc it can be something completely different and Apple is hiding the actual cause but I don’t deal with tinfoil fashion accessories.
- bredren 8y ago
  >Ofc it can be something completely different and Apple is hiding the actual cause but I don’t deal with tinfoil fashion accessories. Which is a shame because the theme this year is I, Robot.
mariopt 8y ago
I would bet my money on the Apple T2 SoC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple-designed_processors#Apple_T2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple-designed_processors#Appl...
skrause 8y ago
Probably the MSR_TURBO_POWER_LIMIT value as described in https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_cpu_tuning_settings_for_i9_mbp_to_stop/ https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_...
- aroman 8y ago
  That analysis is incredible, how was the OP able to figure all of that out!?
  - baybal2 8y ago
    Intel's HDK docs?
  - DavideNL 8y ago
    I don't know, but apparently (1): >> Originally posted at MacRumors by winterny >> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/optimal-cpu-tuning-settings-for-i9-mbp-to-stop-vrm-throttling-explanation-of-apples-engineering-f.2128936/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/optimal-cpu-tuning-sett... 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602455
    - DuskStar 8y ago
      The Reddit post was about 20 minutes earlier.
  - old-gregg 8y ago
    I've experienced some early adopter pains with the desktop version of this CPU (x299 platform) when it came out and I used linux kernel mailing list to search for answers. I was surprised how easy it was to read the code of the related kernel modules and interact with their authors (Intel engineers). These "magic codes" are probably just #define macros somewhere in the kernel repo, in my case it was in [1] [1] https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/master/drivers/platform/x86 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/master/drivers/platfo...
  - 8y ago

jrockway 8y ago

This earlier HN thread has all the details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602146

madeofpalk 8y ago
There are no additional details in that thread.

kevindqc 8y ago

Huge performance difference - how did they not notice before?

sgillen 8y ago
The article made it seem like this only affected a small number of units? Their quality control probably doesn’t look at every single unit. Although it’s interesting that they didn’t find it at all, since reading HN and reddit gave me the impression it was very widespread.
- jmull 8y ago
  Generally you can’t get a sense for how widespread an issue is from social media, because it’s a perfect medium for confirmation bias. Confirming links and stories are shared/upvoted/forwarded while non-confirming ones are ignored or dismissed (or outright attacked for some reason).
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    This is basically the story of the modern world as viewed through the distorting lens that is media (and especially social media). I wish people would take the two sentences you wrote and then use them as a corrective lens that undoes this distorted perspective.
    - sgillen 8y ago
      Yeah it’s really hard to correct the perspective to the truth though if all you have is social media. Honestly I’ve been putting less and less trust in almost all my sources of knowledge recently.
      - tjr225 8y ago
        It's so, so strange that 10-20 years ago my parents told me not to trust what I read on the internet...and now that they're all using it they have seem forgotten their own advice.
        pokemongoaway 8y ago
        Yes it is exactly the same people that said "you can't trust it because it is 'from the internet'" who still now cling hardest to their trusted source of media.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  I would not trust any coverage of supposed issues with Apple hardware. There is a huge incentive for negative coverage. Remember Antenna-gate with the iPhone 4? They continued selling the iPhone 4, completely unmodified, for years after that whole debacle. That's how widespread the supposed issue was.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Apple settled a fairly large lawsuit related to Antennagate and was forced to send out a bumper case to affected users so they could hold the phone the "Jobs" way and get reception rather than the way you would normally hold...literally any other phone before, during, or since Antennagate, including newer iPhone models.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      TBH, the "Jobs" way was the normal way that most people held a phone. It was the people who smothered the whole handset in some kind of crazy death grip that had attenuation problems. I got my bumper in the mail, but never needed or used it.
      - gamblor956 8y ago
        Most of the people I know who had iPhones had issues with the iphone 4 antenna, and only one or two of them are death-grippers. The problem was Apple's poor design, which Apple itself acknowledged by settling the case, offering free bumpers, and redesigning the antenna in future models.
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      They settled for $15/phone or a free case (they had already offered a free case to customers of their own accord). They kept the iPhone 4 around for 2 years after it was no longer their marquee model. Surely if Antennagate was actually a problem for a significant portion of customers they would have stopped selling it as soon as possible (aka, upon release of the 4S). But they didn't.
- curiousgal 8y ago
  Not many manufacturers at their scale charge their prices so their QA procedure should be unorthodox as well.
- opencl 8y ago
  Apple always claims their issues affect a small number of units. I have seen zero people that tested the i9 MBP and did not see major throttling. The issue is clearly the result of a fundamental defect in how they were managing power and thermals.
  - breatheoften 8y ago
    The official explanation seems to be that the key management defect which lead to thermal management problems did not occur in the development machines used during the engineering process. This seems possible as presumably every machine used internally goes through a different provisioning process than those released into customer hands ... Thus the claimed cause of the problem seems to indicate that the flaw did not affect the internal benchmarks they ran. It would be _very_ concerning if the benchmarks they ran for engineering/marketing production were insufficient to catch this issue. I think the official explanation seems pretty likely. If the flaw had been present in the machines used for benchmarking than either their benchmarks didn’t catch the issue (unlikely) or the benchmarking numbers were fabricated which also seems unlikely as it would invite an infeasible amount of legal risk for an organization of apples size and mindshare ...
    - breatheoften 8y ago
      > It would be _very_ concerning if the benchmarks they ran for engineering/marketing production were insufficient to catch this issue. Clarification -- I meant to say -- 'It would be _very_ concerning if the benchmarks they ran for engineering/marketing production were insufficient to catch this issue on a system configuration in which the issue manifests.'
    - temac 8y ago
      Engineering, especially at this level, is not supposed to work like that. You certainly not do dev proto, then switch to prod both in one step and without even rechecking the tests you did on the proto. So their official explanation might be kind of right, but then it shows major deficiencies in their quality process. Which given the track record of quality issues they have had, is possible.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jmole 8y ago

Key, as in key-value pair, perhaps

ggg9990 8y ago

Yikes, pretty bad showing by Apple here. They don't have the leeway that they did when they had Steve Jobs... they have tremendous brand loyalty, but will need to be more careful in the future.

tomp 8y ago
> they have tremendous brand loyalty, but will need to be more careful in the future. Does that really matter though? I was just discussing this with someone over the weekend... his thesis was that people buy Apple because of branding, which might be true as far as the majority of customers are concerned... But for people like me (powerusers), MacBooks are simply the best possible choice. Everything else is either adware (Windows 10), or not usable (Linux laptops lack deiver support (last I heard) You can’t install software on Chromebooks, Windows 7 doesn’t have a Unix subsystem). Not to mention that Apple hardware is beyond superior, and the software mostly just works (things like wi-fi, backups, sharing, ...)
- gaius 8y ago
  Everything else is either adware (Windows 10) I am running Windows 10 Pro on a Surface. I haven’t seen a single ad, anywhere. If that’s your only reason let me set your mind at rest. Surface is a better Mac than a Mac at this point. That’s why I upgraded my old MBP to one rather than a new MBP.
  - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
    The Surface is probably a great Surface, and you might prefer it to a Mac, but a Surface is a terrible Mac, for much the same reason a Mac is a terrible Surface.
    - gaius 8y ago
      As I say, I upgraded my MacBook Pro - for that is what MBP means - to a Surface, so I am quite familiar with both thanks. But by all means ignore my advice and pay through the nose for a device that is blatantly not fit for purpose, I'll be over here enjoying the superior computing experience that Steve Jobs would have wanted me to have!

jarjoura 8y ago

My guess is a sensor requires a signed connection, much like how HDCP works. Seems a bit over-engineered if Apple is building protected sensors, but would also love to hear from someone in the know.

barbegal 8y ago
My guess would be that they shipped with an updated firmware version to the one programmed in the factory. It should have upgraded the first time the device is powered on but because of a missing security signature or maybe key to verify a signature, the firmware update wasn't applied. This is still just a guess but signed firmware is becoming much more common.
gruez 8y ago
"key" as in dictionary key, not cryptographic key

sschueller 8y ago

I don't see how you can get more cooling with a firmware change when the fans are already going at full speed. Does that mean the whole unit will now run hotter before it starts to throttle? How is this going to impact some of those bad solder joints MacBooks are famous for?

coldtea 8y ago
>I don't see how you can get more cooling with a firmware change when the fans are already going at full speed It's not about what you do when the temperature if at its peaks and the fans are going at full speed, it's about how you avoid getting there. >How is this going to impact some of those bad solder joints MacBooks are famous for? When did MacBooks became famous for "bad solder joints"?
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Watch a bunch of Louis Rossman YouTube videos. He knows all about the seedy underbelly of Macbook hardware design mistakes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AcEt073Uds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AcEt073Uds
  - dpkonofa 8y ago
    A few things that I take issue with here: 1) Louis Rossman has a vested interest in drumming up attention for his videos and has, on multiple occasions, used false statements and misleading practices to do so. Just like in the initial release video of the Touch Bar MBPs where he used an unshielded USB-A to USB-C cable and then complained that WiFi wasn't working. When used with a shielded cable, the issue went away and yet he never issued a correction or retraction. The issue was with the adapter he used, not the computer. Which leads directly to... 2) The issue stated in that video that required reballing was an issue with nVidia chips and affected all laptops that used that platform, both PC and Mac. To suggest that it was an engineering issue on Apple's part is disingenuous and only further reinforces the idea that he's not making these videos to be helpful but to drive traffic to his channel and repairs to his store. 3) Just look at how he used the Linus story to get the repair done at his shop. He has a pattern and, unlike what most people think, it's not altruistic. It's all to benefit him. I don't blame him but let's not pretend that he's doing this because he cares about users or the "right to repair" movement. He cares because he can mislabel and misconstrue the positions of the people against it to benefit his business. He'd love it if Apple was forced to provide him schematics and docs. He's in it for himself.

dogma1138 8y ago

My bet is that sensors don’t output absolute values and you need to use an offset to get the correct “reading” for your thermal profile and cooling. Basically based on the location and type of sensor(s) and your cooling solution you will apply an offset to get the actual temperature to be used for managing the power profile and cooling of the component. This is pretty common and the reason why many apps don’t readout the temperature of newly released components correctly. Ofc it can be something completely different and Apple is hiding the actual cause but I don’t deal with tinfoil fashion accessories.

bredren 8y ago
>Ofc it can be something completely different and Apple is hiding the actual cause but I don’t deal with tinfoil fashion accessories. Which is a shame because the theme this year is I, Robot.

mariopt 8y ago

I would bet my money on the Apple T2 SoC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple-designed_processors#Apple_T2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple-designed_processors#Appl...

skrause 8y ago

Probably the MSR_TURBO_POWER_LIMIT value as described in https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_cpu_tuning_settings_for_i9_mbp_to_stop/ https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/91256u/optimal_...

aroman 8y ago
That analysis is incredible, how was the OP able to figure all of that out!?
- baybal2 8y ago
  Intel's HDK docs?
- DavideNL 8y ago
  I don't know, but apparently (1): >> Originally posted at MacRumors by winterny >> https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/optimal-cpu-tuning-settings-for-i9-mbp-to-stop-vrm-throttling-explanation-of-apples-engineering-f.2128936/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/optimal-cpu-tuning-sett... 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17602455
  - DuskStar 8y ago
    The Reddit post was about 20 minutes earlier.
- old-gregg 8y ago
  I've experienced some early adopter pains with the desktop version of this CPU (x299 platform) when it came out and I used linux kernel mailing list to search for answers. I was surprised how easy it was to read the code of the related kernel modules and interact with their authors (Intel engineers). These "magic codes" are probably just #define macros somewhere in the kernel repo, in my case it was in [1] [1] https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/master/drivers/platform/x86 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/master/drivers/platfo...
- 8y ago