4 ms·

I agree except for the last point. The most aggressive states are USA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UK and France while being (morally) supported by NATO allies. The

by gepi79 8y ago

I agree except for the last point. The most aggressive states are USA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UK and France while being (morally) supported by NATO allies. They engage in overt and secret warfare because they can in order to meet some objective. They do not engage in war because they were attacked.

ilovetux 8y ago
[citation needed]?
- indrax 8y ago
  [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet
  - ilovetux 8y ago
    So, had to re-read that article just in case there was new information, but even if all the speculation is true (probably) this does not support the claim that USA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UK and France are the most aggressive cyber-combatants. Stuxnet was a targeted attack which accomplished a defensive goal. It is also unlikely that Saudi Arabia, the UK nor France had anything to do with this attack nor are there any claims of NATO support for the development of Stuxnet. Meanwhile Russia is actively targeting political systems worldwide through social media and misinformation while also stockpiling latent backdoors and probably more.
    - orbital-decay 8y ago
      >actively targeting political systems worldwide through X Sounds like what every big player is doing for centuries. >while also stockpiling latent backdoors and probably more Sounds like what every big player is doing for at least a couple decades, except for the US which does this since early 90s while having much wider reach (a lot of the infrastructure and most software/hardware companies with irreplaceable products are within US jurisdiction). >Stuxnet was a targeted attack which accomplished a defensive goal Stuxnet was deployed outside the US or Israel (where it was created) to destroy the foreign infrastructure. If you're going to call that defensive or preemptive, any attack on the US or Israel infrastructure can be justified as such by the attacker as well.
      - ilovetux 8y ago
        > actively targeting political systems worldwide through X >> Sounds like what every big player is doing for centuries. This is traditionally an internal matter. > Sounds like what every big player is doing Perhaps, but I need citations before I can argue the case >> any attack on the US or Israel infrastructure can be justified as such by the attacker as well. Not really, this was to stall the Iranian nuclear program, Israel and the US is already a nuclear power. Any attack on our infrastructure would be solely to cause harm to noncombatants.
- gepi79 8y ago
  Kosovo war. Iraq war. Libya war. Regime change in Ukraine. Syria war. Economic sanctions killing hundreds of thousands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/07/hague-tribunal-exonerates-slobodan-milosevic-again.html https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/07/hague-trib... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsG32fkm6sE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsG32fkm6sE https://youtu.be/MlNn1v4_Uf0?t=1600 https://youtu.be/MlNn1v4_Uf0?t=1600 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLkL4Fj3jFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLkL4Fj3jFw https://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-bombing-legacy/5569349 https://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-bombing-legacy/5569349 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSIDgAAU4Ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSIDgAAU4Ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2MMTMsdvM&t=21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2MMTMsdvM&t=21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fV-C1Ag5sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fV-C1Ag5sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UHYAfAFG_k&t=6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UHYAfAFG_k&t=6
  - ilovetux 8y ago
    I have checked each of these links and this does not feel like reliable information.
    - gepi79 8y ago
      Why not ? Why judge by feeling ? Anyway, thanks for the courtesy of checking each link.
      - ilovetux 8y ago
        Feeling is all I have in the end, sure it's backed up by what I have learned through the years but in the end the decisions I make are not only informed by my feelings but will also affect my feelings for the rest of my life. I have a healthy distrust of my government (The US) and I know there have been travesties committed by just about all of the players. I want to be informed and am willing to do the research. I was pretty young during some of the conflicts you mentioned so I'm also brushing up on some of the history. Which side do you align yourself with in the Kosovo war, it seems like it was a terrible ordeal for everyone involved?

by gepi79 8y ago

ilovetux 8y ago

[citation needed]?

indrax 8y ago
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet
- ilovetux 8y ago
  So, had to re-read that article just in case there was new information, but even if all the speculation is true (probably) this does not support the claim that USA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, UK and France are the most aggressive cyber-combatants. Stuxnet was a targeted attack which accomplished a defensive goal. It is also unlikely that Saudi Arabia, the UK nor France had anything to do with this attack nor are there any claims of NATO support for the development of Stuxnet. Meanwhile Russia is actively targeting political systems worldwide through social media and misinformation while also stockpiling latent backdoors and probably more.
  - orbital-decay 8y ago
    >actively targeting political systems worldwide through X Sounds like what every big player is doing for centuries. >while also stockpiling latent backdoors and probably more Sounds like what every big player is doing for at least a couple decades, except for the US which does this since early 90s while having much wider reach (a lot of the infrastructure and most software/hardware companies with irreplaceable products are within US jurisdiction). >Stuxnet was a targeted attack which accomplished a defensive goal Stuxnet was deployed outside the US or Israel (where it was created) to destroy the foreign infrastructure. If you're going to call that defensive or preemptive, any attack on the US or Israel infrastructure can be justified as such by the attacker as well.
    - ilovetux 8y ago
      > actively targeting political systems worldwide through X >> Sounds like what every big player is doing for centuries. This is traditionally an internal matter. > Sounds like what every big player is doing Perhaps, but I need citations before I can argue the case >> any attack on the US or Israel infrastructure can be justified as such by the attacker as well. Not really, this was to stall the Iranian nuclear program, Israel and the US is already a nuclear power. Any attack on our infrastructure would be solely to cause harm to noncombatants.
gepi79 8y ago
Kosovo war. Iraq war. Libya war. Regime change in Ukraine. Syria war. Economic sanctions killing hundreds of thousands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/07/hague-tribunal-exonerates-slobodan-milosevic-again.html https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/07/hague-trib... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsG32fkm6sE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsG32fkm6sE https://youtu.be/MlNn1v4_Uf0?t=1600 https://youtu.be/MlNn1v4_Uf0?t=1600 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLkL4Fj3jFw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLkL4Fj3jFw https://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-bombing-legacy/5569349 https://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-bombing-legacy/5569349 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSIDgAAU4Ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSIDgAAU4Ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2MMTMsdvM&t=21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2MMTMsdvM&t=21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fV-C1Ag5sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fV-C1Ag5sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UHYAfAFG_k&t=6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UHYAfAFG_k&t=6
- ilovetux 8y ago
  I have checked each of these links and this does not feel like reliable information.
  - gepi79 8y ago
    Why not ? Why judge by feeling ? Anyway, thanks for the courtesy of checking each link.
    - ilovetux 8y ago
      Feeling is all I have in the end, sure it's backed up by what I have learned through the years but in the end the decisions I make are not only informed by my feelings but will also affect my feelings for the rest of my life. I have a healthy distrust of my government (The US) and I know there have been travesties committed by just about all of the players. I want to be informed and am willing to do the research. I was pretty young during some of the conflicts you mentioned so I'm also brushing up on some of the history. Which side do you align yourself with in the Kosovo war, it seems like it was a terrible ordeal for everyone involved?