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I'm curious. Quotes from the article: -- “It happens pretty much all the time if there is a strong rainfall or a storm,” The phenomenon is not confined to th

I'm curious. Quotes from the article: -- “It happens pretty much all the time if there is a strong rainfall or a storm,” The phenomenon is not confined to the Dominican Republic, he said, and can be seen in many developing nations with a coastline. “Everybody uses the rivers and the beaches as dump sites.” -- So we're being told that ocean's plastic garbage patch is somehow made out of the contents of landfills around the globe (and western countries) making it into the ocean with rain water. To anyone who has seen a landfill in real life that looks wildly improbable, except for a very minuscule amount of material. I feel like developing countries using ocean as a waste dump is much more likely to be the true cause of the garbage patch.

steveadoo 8y ago
86% of the oceans plastic comes from Asia[1]. [1] https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/ https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/
- sattoshi 8y ago
  This statistic shows that as NA or EU residents, what we do basically does not matter. The plastic waste of Asia will only grow. What we can do is focus on the cleanliness of our local communities as that is the only place where we can have an effect. But on the global scale, unless if we manage to strongarm Asia into behaving, it's borderline meaningless.
  - kaybe 8y ago
    What would help is to develop a material that is just as good as plastic (or better), degrades easily and is cheaper as well, and then wait for them to copy. Germany basically did this for solar energy.
    - t3po7re5 8y ago
      I think the issue is no matter what policies are adapted outside of Asia, the current status of ocean plastics will remain until Asian countries modify their internal policies.
    - Alupis 8y ago
      Such as biodegradable plastics, which can, in some cases, fully decompose in as little as 24 months![1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodegradable_plastic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodegradable_plastic
    - southerndrift 8y ago
      The point of plastic is that it doesn't degrade. How could you make a bottle that maintains its integrity when storing lemonade but dissolves once it hits the ocean or a lake? There is no useful signal that separates the situations. You could try continuous disintegration, but this requires people accepting part of a dissolving bottle in their drinks.
  - irrational 8y ago
    We could not send our recycling to Asia to deal with and build plants to process it here at home.
mc32 8y ago
There was a recent study which has been circulating. Most (90%) of the plastics in the ocean that are not related to fishing equipment come from 8 rivers in Asia and then the Nile and Niger rivers in Africa. Mostly due to poor or unregulated waste disposal infrastructures.
- gfo 8y ago
  Can you link the study? Why do they believe that's the case? Is it just the lack of a waste disposal infrastructure?
  - chlvsl 8y ago
    A simple google search yields: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/90-of-plastic-polluting-our-oceans-comes-from-just-10-rivers/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/90-of-plastic-polluti... https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-from-just-10-rivers/a-41581484 https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plas...
- rypskar 8y ago
  Is this myth still going around? If you read more than the headlines you will see that it is 90% of the plastics coming from rivers are from 10 big rivers, so it is not including any plastic that go directly into the ocean. Not that it would not help to clean up those rivers, but what you do also matter https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plas...
- aero- 8y ago
  The Scientific American article states that 25% of the plastic pours into the Ocean from 10 rivers. 8 of them in Asia.
throwaway427 8y ago
God forbid I use a straw, though.
- gfo 8y ago
  Explain the inconvenience you're experiencing because you can't get a straw? It's a step forward, a small one at that, but it's progress. I don't understand those complaining - they usually fall back to people with disabilities, and yet establishments will still have straws on-hand for those folks.
  - jannyfer 8y ago
    I don't know if the parent comment was complaining of inconvenience. Straws are a trivial step forward, and I don't think we shouldn't feel better because of it and think we've done something meaningful. Straw bans are a particularly easy topic to make fun of, because of some internet analysis that Starbucks' solution uses more plastic than using straws.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      It was “some Internet analysis” — by a 9 year old apparently? — that got the ball rolling on this latest legislative fleecing. Banning straws are a non-trivial step backwards which will lead to more pollution IMO. It’s a mockery of real steps which could be taken that would have orders of magnitude more effect on actual pollution levels. If you think banning straws are an actual benefit, I think you’ve left science behind and moved on to politics.
  - ksenzee 8y ago
    > establishments will still have straws on-hand for those folks Not everywhere, they won't. Santa Barbara just passed a straw ban without any exceptions for disabled people who actually need plastic straws. In other places, it's still legal for restaurants to keep straws around for those who need them, but the restaurants don't all know that. From what I can tell, reading what straw-using disabled people have to say about this, it's as frustrating for them as if there were suddenly a ban on toilet paper in public restrooms. They absolutely need this disposable item, and they have never needed to carry their own before, or ask about it in advance. Now all of a sudden they're stuck having to be super-prepared at all times they're out in public, or they risk not being able to meet a basic bodily need.
fein 8y ago
> developing countries using ocean as a waste dump I thought this was common knowledge by this point. The most polluted rivers in the world are located in India, China, South America, Africa, and Indonesia.
- polskibus 8y ago
  Developed countries don't help by shipping their waste to developing countries and removing the problem from their sight. China recently stopped accepting garbage from California and now the problem is back in the USA.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    I understand what you're saying, but now China gets clean rivers, and OUR rivers are a mess and begin pumping garbage and pollution into the ocean. (I guess, since we already pump garbage and pollution into the ocean it might be more accurate to say that we begin to pump more garbage and pollution into the ocean.) Point is, mankind still has the issue. China is not solving any problems by making us keep our own garbage. They're not helping mankind at all. And neither are we with our penchant for plastic products. I guess I'm just pointing out that the problem has not been fixed, it's been transferred.
  - fein 8y ago
    The waste generated by countries that have over 1 billion inhabitants each will dwarf the amount of garbage we could ship them even if all garbage storage in the US was outsourced to them. It's a simple numbers game. 300 million will never produce as much waste as 1 billion.
    - sumedh 8y ago
      > 300 million will never produce as much waste as 1 billion. I dont have the numbers but Americans do produce more trash compared to majority of those billion. Its hard to compete with Americans when you live on $2 per day.
endorphone 8y ago
Is that landfill claim a bit of a strawman (pardon the pun)? I've seen little to nothing about it being the result of landfills, and everything about it being a result of the culture of disposable plastics. We're all to blame for disposable plastics.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  I think the point is that disposable plastics are not an issue if they end up in landfills.
- dsabanin 8y ago
  I'm not sure how popular that claim is, but I've heard it multiple times. Especially as part of the eco-protective initiatives. I was able to find this example[1]: "Even if you live hundreds of miles from the coast, the plastic you throw away could make its way into the sea. Once in the ocean, plastic decomposes very slowly, breaking down in to tiny pieces known as micro plastics that can be incredibly damaging to sea life. 80% of plastic in our oceans is from land sources – but what does that really mean? Where is it coming from? There are three main ways the plastic we use every day ends up in the oceans." "1. Throwing plastic in the bin when it could be recycled. Plastic you put in the bin ends up in landfill. When rubbish is being transported to landfill, plastic is often blown away because it’s so lightweight. From there, it can eventually clutter around drains and enter rivers and the sea this way." "2. Littering Litter dropped on the street doesn’t stay there. Rainwater and wind carries plastic waste into streams and rivers, and through drains. Drains lead to the ocean!" "3. Products that go down the drain Many of the products we use daily are flushed down toilets, including wet wipes, cotton buds and sanitary products." At no point they mention the fact that some countries are just using ocean as a landfill and that causes 90% of the pollution of it. [1]: https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/how-does-plastic-end-ocean https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/how-does-plastic-end-ocean
  - endorphone 8y ago
    Fair enough, but none of those are about items actually in the landfill. It's about the process of getting there. And even with recycling, a large percentage is sent to China, India, and other nations where its custody is uncertain. The single raindrop never feels responsible for the flood. Whether it's CO2, plastics, CFCs, etc, our individual contributions might be tiny in the grand scheme of things, but together make a difference. The best thing we can do is change the culture of single-use disposables and export that to other nations.
scarejunba 8y ago
You’re being told explicitly that “the garbage comes from the Ozama river that flows into the ocean near the beach”. That’s literally on the page. And then you’re being told that “[in many developing nations with a coastline], everyone uses the rivers and beaches as dump sites”.
colanderman 8y ago
Feelings aside, 46% of the garbage in the patch is discarded fishing material: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/great-pacific-garbage-patch-larger-and-chunkier-we-thought-180968580/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/great-pacific-garb...
cptaj 8y ago
Its not the landfills. Its the slums around cities in developing countries. They don't even have roads most of the time, much less effective trash collection. They usually just dump the trash down the hill or through some water drainage. You can clearly see the problem if you go there.
WhompingWindows 8y ago
Who is telling you all the ocean's garbage /plastic patches are from landfills? I haven't read that personally. The evidence I've seen points to general litter, things falling from garbage receptacles, and in addition developing nations with very lax cultural norms around garbage. I don't think landfills are in the picture as one of the top factors.
- slavik81 8y ago
  It's definitely a belief that's out there. I've argued with people about it before. For example, jdavis703 and Reason077 seem to believe that material sent to the landfill will end up in the ocean. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17410483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17410483

steveadoo 8y ago

86% of the oceans plastic comes from Asia[1]. [1] https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/ https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/

sattoshi 8y ago
This statistic shows that as NA or EU residents, what we do basically does not matter. The plastic waste of Asia will only grow. What we can do is focus on the cleanliness of our local communities as that is the only place where we can have an effect. But on the global scale, unless if we manage to strongarm Asia into behaving, it's borderline meaningless.
- kaybe 8y ago
  What would help is to develop a material that is just as good as plastic (or better), degrades easily and is cheaper as well, and then wait for them to copy. Germany basically did this for solar energy.
  - t3po7re5 8y ago
    I think the issue is no matter what policies are adapted outside of Asia, the current status of ocean plastics will remain until Asian countries modify their internal policies.
  - Alupis 8y ago
    Such as biodegradable plastics, which can, in some cases, fully decompose in as little as 24 months![1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodegradable_plastic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodegradable_plastic
  - southerndrift 8y ago
    The point of plastic is that it doesn't degrade. How could you make a bottle that maintains its integrity when storing lemonade but dissolves once it hits the ocean or a lake? There is no useful signal that separates the situations. You could try continuous disintegration, but this requires people accepting part of a dissolving bottle in their drinks.
- irrational 8y ago
  We could not send our recycling to Asia to deal with and build plants to process it here at home.

mc32 8y ago

There was a recent study which has been circulating. Most (90%) of the plastics in the ocean that are not related to fishing equipment come from 8 rivers in Asia and then the Nile and Niger rivers in Africa. Mostly due to poor or unregulated waste disposal infrastructures.

gfo 8y ago
Can you link the study? Why do they believe that's the case? Is it just the lack of a waste disposal infrastructure?
- chlvsl 8y ago
  A simple google search yields: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/90-of-plastic-polluting-our-oceans-comes-from-just-10-rivers/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/90-of-plastic-polluti... https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-from-just-10-rivers/a-41581484 https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plas...
rypskar 8y ago
Is this myth still going around? If you read more than the headlines you will see that it is 90% of the plastics coming from rivers are from 10 big rivers, so it is not including any plastic that go directly into the ocean. Not that it would not help to clean up those rivers, but what you do also matter https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plas...
aero- 8y ago
The Scientific American article states that 25% of the plastic pours into the Ocean from 10 rivers. 8 of them in Asia.

throwaway427 8y ago

God forbid I use a straw, though.

gfo 8y ago
Explain the inconvenience you're experiencing because you can't get a straw? It's a step forward, a small one at that, but it's progress. I don't understand those complaining - they usually fall back to people with disabilities, and yet establishments will still have straws on-hand for those folks.
- jannyfer 8y ago
  I don't know if the parent comment was complaining of inconvenience. Straws are a trivial step forward, and I don't think we shouldn't feel better because of it and think we've done something meaningful. Straw bans are a particularly easy topic to make fun of, because of some internet analysis that Starbucks' solution uses more plastic than using straws.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    It was “some Internet analysis” — by a 9 year old apparently? — that got the ball rolling on this latest legislative fleecing. Banning straws are a non-trivial step backwards which will lead to more pollution IMO. It’s a mockery of real steps which could be taken that would have orders of magnitude more effect on actual pollution levels. If you think banning straws are an actual benefit, I think you’ve left science behind and moved on to politics.
- ksenzee 8y ago
  > establishments will still have straws on-hand for those folks Not everywhere, they won't. Santa Barbara just passed a straw ban without any exceptions for disabled people who actually need plastic straws. In other places, it's still legal for restaurants to keep straws around for those who need them, but the restaurants don't all know that. From what I can tell, reading what straw-using disabled people have to say about this, it's as frustrating for them as if there were suddenly a ban on toilet paper in public restrooms. They absolutely need this disposable item, and they have never needed to carry their own before, or ask about it in advance. Now all of a sudden they're stuck having to be super-prepared at all times they're out in public, or they risk not being able to meet a basic bodily need.

fein 8y ago

> developing countries using ocean as a waste dump I thought this was common knowledge by this point. The most polluted rivers in the world are located in India, China, South America, Africa, and Indonesia.

polskibus 8y ago
Developed countries don't help by shipping their waste to developing countries and removing the problem from their sight. China recently stopped accepting garbage from California and now the problem is back in the USA.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I understand what you're saying, but now China gets clean rivers, and OUR rivers are a mess and begin pumping garbage and pollution into the ocean. (I guess, since we already pump garbage and pollution into the ocean it might be more accurate to say that we begin to pump more garbage and pollution into the ocean.) Point is, mankind still has the issue. China is not solving any problems by making us keep our own garbage. They're not helping mankind at all. And neither are we with our penchant for plastic products. I guess I'm just pointing out that the problem has not been fixed, it's been transferred.
- fein 8y ago
  The waste generated by countries that have over 1 billion inhabitants each will dwarf the amount of garbage we could ship them even if all garbage storage in the US was outsourced to them. It's a simple numbers game. 300 million will never produce as much waste as 1 billion.
  - sumedh 8y ago
    > 300 million will never produce as much waste as 1 billion. I dont have the numbers but Americans do produce more trash compared to majority of those billion. Its hard to compete with Americans when you live on $2 per day.

endorphone 8y ago

Is that landfill claim a bit of a strawman (pardon the pun)? I've seen little to nothing about it being the result of landfills, and everything about it being a result of the culture of disposable plastics. We're all to blame for disposable plastics.

toasterlovin 8y ago
I think the point is that disposable plastics are not an issue if they end up in landfills.
dsabanin 8y ago
I'm not sure how popular that claim is, but I've heard it multiple times. Especially as part of the eco-protective initiatives. I was able to find this example[1]: "Even if you live hundreds of miles from the coast, the plastic you throw away could make its way into the sea. Once in the ocean, plastic decomposes very slowly, breaking down in to tiny pieces known as micro plastics that can be incredibly damaging to sea life. 80% of plastic in our oceans is from land sources – but what does that really mean? Where is it coming from? There are three main ways the plastic we use every day ends up in the oceans." "1. Throwing plastic in the bin when it could be recycled. Plastic you put in the bin ends up in landfill. When rubbish is being transported to landfill, plastic is often blown away because it’s so lightweight. From there, it can eventually clutter around drains and enter rivers and the sea this way." "2. Littering Litter dropped on the street doesn’t stay there. Rainwater and wind carries plastic waste into streams and rivers, and through drains. Drains lead to the ocean!" "3. Products that go down the drain Many of the products we use daily are flushed down toilets, including wet wipes, cotton buds and sanitary products." At no point they mention the fact that some countries are just using ocean as a landfill and that causes 90% of the pollution of it. [1]: https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/how-does-plastic-end-ocean https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/how-does-plastic-end-ocean
- endorphone 8y ago
  Fair enough, but none of those are about items actually in the landfill. It's about the process of getting there. And even with recycling, a large percentage is sent to China, India, and other nations where its custody is uncertain. The single raindrop never feels responsible for the flood. Whether it's CO2, plastics, CFCs, etc, our individual contributions might be tiny in the grand scheme of things, but together make a difference. The best thing we can do is change the culture of single-use disposables and export that to other nations.

scarejunba 8y ago

You’re being told explicitly that “the garbage comes from the Ozama river that flows into the ocean near the beach”. That’s literally on the page. And then you’re being told that “[in many developing nations with a coastline], everyone uses the rivers and beaches as dump sites”.

colanderman 8y ago

Feelings aside, 46% of the garbage in the patch is discarded fishing material: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/great-pacific-garbage-patch-larger-and-chunkier-we-thought-180968580/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/great-pacific-garb...

cptaj 8y ago

Its not the landfills. Its the slums around cities in developing countries. They don't even have roads most of the time, much less effective trash collection. They usually just dump the trash down the hill or through some water drainage. You can clearly see the problem if you go there.

WhompingWindows 8y ago

Who is telling you all the ocean's garbage /plastic patches are from landfills? I haven't read that personally. The evidence I've seen points to general litter, things falling from garbage receptacles, and in addition developing nations with very lax cultural norms around garbage. I don't think landfills are in the picture as one of the top factors.

slavik81 8y ago
It's definitely a belief that's out there. I've argued with people about it before. For example, jdavis703 and Reason077 seem to believe that material sent to the landfill will end up in the ocean. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17410483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17410483