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I'm a physical goods retailer and I'd like to point out a bit of group-think on HN's part. 3 months ago, I asked you guys if I should use a Groupon clone (http:

by garply 16y ago

I'm a physical goods retailer and I'd like to point out a bit of group-think on HN's part. 3 months ago, I asked you guys if I should use a Groupon clone (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1490096 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1490096) and I got overwhelmingly positive responses (someone even called my concerns paranoid). Now the place is littered with negative attitudes toward Groupon. I don't think the facts underpinning my worries have changed, only the community's attitude.

AlexMuir 16y ago
Interesting: 3 months ago HN was positive, now we're negative. 3 months from now the public / business owners might be negative - and then it's fad over.
gojomo 16y ago
Group-think or adjusting to new information? And have any of the individual people from that earlier thread -- only 7 people! -- changed their advice, or is it a new and different group that's now vocal with negative sentiments? It'd be a mistake to take either the small sample of the earlier thread, or the people piling onto recent Groupon news items, as accurately representing a single consensus "HN community attitude" towards Groupon.
pvg 16y ago
There's plenty of hive-mindish stuff on HN but I wouldn't call the response to your original post 'overwhelmingly' anything - you got about 7 responses and those responses barely got a couple of upvotes between them. Statistically, nobody on HN read your post. I don't have it handy now but on the recent thread about the Portland coffeeshop owner, most posters seemed to feel it was the proprietor's mistake rather than Groupon's fault. What did you end up deciding, though, did you use a Groupon clone and if so, how did it work out?
- garply 16y ago
  You're right, I didn't get a ton of responses. Still, the responses I did get were overwhelmingly pro-Groupon. As someone seeking an answer to an important question, my takeaway was "Hm, HN thinks it's a good idea." Honestly, I'm still on the fence. I've said this elsewhere, but I'm in China and the Groupon clone market here is really saturated and interesting to watch. Basically, the Chinese clone market really resembled the American market for a while (w/ a winner, Meituan, pulling ahead), but then just about every site with a large email list or userbase joined the fray. Even my local expat magazine is running a Groupon clone. The original players are now getting clobbered by RenRen (a Chinese Facebook) and Dianping (the Chinese Yelp). I can tell because I know a Groupon clone owner who's basically dropped out of the contest and because the other clone salespeople (including Meituan's) have become increasingly desperate and have offered me increasingly better terms. I'm currently leaning towards using some of them, because I believe I've gotten some of them to the point where I can have the Groupon require customers to buy from my website, which gives me customer information that I really want. Customer data aside, I still think these sites are causing the equivalent of a price war in the industries they're targeting. During some periods when a competitor is being featured, it almost seems like it's directly hurting my volume. I guess it could be coincidence though.
  - sedachv 16y ago
    Just wanted to say that posts like this are the reason I read HN. More insight into Chinese ecommerce ftw.
  - tel 16y ago
    Be very careful making conclusions such as "HN thinks it's a good idea". Even discounting groupthink, there's a more powerful (related) selection bias effect. People who respond positively to an opinion are more likely to comment. With a small sample size you're completely at the whim of these two effects. That said, some of the specific advice might be useful. In particular, edw519's point that you should ensure that you collect customer information to continue the relationship is likely pretty wise.
marknutter 16y ago
HN likes to turn against companies that become too successful - FB, Groupon, etc. I assume it has a little bit to do with sour grapes and a little bit to do with not wanting monopolies forming.
- stanleydrew 16y ago
  HN likes Apple and Google a fair bit. I'd say HN turns against companies that turn against their users/customers.
  - SwellJoe 16y ago
    I don't like Apple. But I agree with you. When I don't like a company it's because of specific behaviors of the the company that I turn against them, and not at all related to size or level of success. I don't like facebook because they have a long history of playing fast and loose with customer privacy, as well as turning a blind eye to out-and-out fraudulent and manipulative facebook apps (Zynga, for instance).
- notahacker 16y ago
  There's also a concern about how monopolists might use their monopolies - 50% commissions aren't a positive sign. If there's any sour grapes its a dislike of companies gaining traction through aggressive viral marketing rather than novelty, usefulness or technical proficiency. I don't see too much ill-feeling towards Google, Amazon or Skype, for instance.
marksbren 16y ago
I tend to agree here, although I don't think it is limited to the HN community. This article could have easily had the headline, "60% of Groupon merchants would do it again". I think that would have been the headline a few months ago.
thaumaturgy 16y ago
For what it's worth, I'm a service provider in the Sacramento area and my tech manager and I are working hard at coming up with an offer that we can provide through Groupon near the end of this year. I think they're a great, valuable service, despite the large amount of negative press I've read about them recently. I'm not very interested in trying to convince anyone on HN, though.
gommm 16y ago
By the way garply, I'm curious where in China are you based? If you're in Shanghai, let's meet up... I can't comment on the group think or not on Groupon here. One thing though, as a user of groupon type deals (well meituan, lashou and enjoymeitian), I find that most deals I bought didn't bring anything for the shop owner... Either the discount was too steep and in that case I'm unlikely to ever want to pay the full price to come again or it's a shop I already know and enjoy (happens to me a lot with restaurants deals). So, I think that Groupon and clones are a useful tool to have, but one needs to think very carefully on how to formulate the deals. The discount shouldn't be too big or you'll attract people who are too cheap (or don't have enough money) to pay for your service at normal price. You also need to find a way to make them come back. For restaurants and cafes, this can be done with adding them to a mailinglist and organizing regular events...

by garply 16y ago

AlexMuir 16y ago

Interesting: 3 months ago HN was positive, now we're negative. 3 months from now the public / business owners might be negative - and then it's fad over.

gojomo 16y ago

Group-think or adjusting to new information? And have any of the individual people from that earlier thread -- only 7 people! -- changed their advice, or is it a new and different group that's now vocal with negative sentiments? It'd be a mistake to take either the small sample of the earlier thread, or the people piling onto recent Groupon news items, as accurately representing a single consensus "HN community attitude" towards Groupon.

pvg 16y ago

There's plenty of hive-mindish stuff on HN but I wouldn't call the response to your original post 'overwhelmingly' anything - you got about 7 responses and those responses barely got a couple of upvotes between them. Statistically, nobody on HN read your post. I don't have it handy now but on the recent thread about the Portland coffeeshop owner, most posters seemed to feel it was the proprietor's mistake rather than Groupon's fault. What did you end up deciding, though, did you use a Groupon clone and if so, how did it work out?

garply 16y ago
You're right, I didn't get a ton of responses. Still, the responses I did get were overwhelmingly pro-Groupon. As someone seeking an answer to an important question, my takeaway was "Hm, HN thinks it's a good idea." Honestly, I'm still on the fence. I've said this elsewhere, but I'm in China and the Groupon clone market here is really saturated and interesting to watch. Basically, the Chinese clone market really resembled the American market for a while (w/ a winner, Meituan, pulling ahead), but then just about every site with a large email list or userbase joined the fray. Even my local expat magazine is running a Groupon clone. The original players are now getting clobbered by RenRen (a Chinese Facebook) and Dianping (the Chinese Yelp). I can tell because I know a Groupon clone owner who's basically dropped out of the contest and because the other clone salespeople (including Meituan's) have become increasingly desperate and have offered me increasingly better terms. I'm currently leaning towards using some of them, because I believe I've gotten some of them to the point where I can have the Groupon require customers to buy from my website, which gives me customer information that I really want. Customer data aside, I still think these sites are causing the equivalent of a price war in the industries they're targeting. During some periods when a competitor is being featured, it almost seems like it's directly hurting my volume. I guess it could be coincidence though.
- sedachv 16y ago
  Just wanted to say that posts like this are the reason I read HN. More insight into Chinese ecommerce ftw.
- tel 16y ago
  Be very careful making conclusions such as "HN thinks it's a good idea". Even discounting groupthink, there's a more powerful (related) selection bias effect. People who respond positively to an opinion are more likely to comment. With a small sample size you're completely at the whim of these two effects. That said, some of the specific advice might be useful. In particular, edw519's point that you should ensure that you collect customer information to continue the relationship is likely pretty wise.

marknutter 16y ago

HN likes to turn against companies that become too successful - FB, Groupon, etc. I assume it has a little bit to do with sour grapes and a little bit to do with not wanting monopolies forming.

stanleydrew 16y ago
HN likes Apple and Google a fair bit. I'd say HN turns against companies that turn against their users/customers.
- SwellJoe 16y ago
  I don't like Apple. But I agree with you. When I don't like a company it's because of specific behaviors of the the company that I turn against them, and not at all related to size or level of success. I don't like facebook because they have a long history of playing fast and loose with customer privacy, as well as turning a blind eye to out-and-out fraudulent and manipulative facebook apps (Zynga, for instance).
notahacker 16y ago
There's also a concern about how monopolists might use their monopolies - 50% commissions aren't a positive sign. If there's any sour grapes its a dislike of companies gaining traction through aggressive viral marketing rather than novelty, usefulness or technical proficiency. I don't see too much ill-feeling towards Google, Amazon or Skype, for instance.

marksbren 16y ago

I tend to agree here, although I don't think it is limited to the HN community. This article could have easily had the headline, "60% of Groupon merchants would do it again". I think that would have been the headline a few months ago.

thaumaturgy 16y ago

For what it's worth, I'm a service provider in the Sacramento area and my tech manager and I are working hard at coming up with an offer that we can provide through Groupon near the end of this year. I think they're a great, valuable service, despite the large amount of negative press I've read about them recently. I'm not very interested in trying to convince anyone on HN, though.

gommm 16y ago

By the way garply, I'm curious where in China are you based? If you're in Shanghai, let's meet up... I can't comment on the group think or not on Groupon here. One thing though, as a user of groupon type deals (well meituan, lashou and enjoymeitian), I find that most deals I bought didn't bring anything for the shop owner... Either the discount was too steep and in that case I'm unlikely to ever want to pay the full price to come again or it's a shop I already know and enjoy (happens to me a lot with restaurants deals). So, I think that Groupon and clones are a useful tool to have, but one needs to think very carefully on how to formulate the deals. The discount shouldn't be too big or you'll attract people who are too cheap (or don't have enough money) to pay for your service at normal price. You also need to find a way to make them come back. For restaurants and cafes, this can be done with adding them to a mailinglist and organizing regular events...