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When will a superpower (China or USA) step in and end this miserable spiral? An effective military action and instalment of a puppet government, followed by a f

When will a superpower (China or USA) step in and end this miserable spiral? An effective military action and instalment of a puppet government, followed by a free reign to multinational oil companies should swiftly end the miseries being endured by the Venezuelan populace.

phyller 8y ago
And the moment that happens every single bad thing in Venezuela for the past 15 years and the future 1,000 years will be their fault. The entire world would condemn the USA as imperialists and there would be protests in the streets. Europeans would scoff at American brutality. And 5 more Chavezs with their socialist revolutions would be born, raging against US hegemony. That's what Chavez did in the first place, he was "protecting Venezuela from the imperialist USA". All the problems caused by his socialist revolution were actually because of US interference. There are still people today, here in this board, that believe that.
- andrepd 8y ago
  Name one (developing) country that was improved by US interventionism. I can name a dozen that were destroyed, ransacked by US businesses, genocides committed, etc.
  - phyller 8y ago
    I was arguing against US intervention. But since you asked... Mali. When i was there the local pharmacist had a picture of president Ford, of all people, up. Turns out the US had run a program to eradicate a particularly nasty parasite in the region. They'd also built the road, the irrigation canals that allowed them to grow rice, and the bridge that connected them to the other markets. I'm American and i don't know this stuff, gauranteed this is not being reported in the foreign press. Kenya is one of the more stable countries as far as Africa goes. When i was there i was surprised to learn from the local newspaper that the majority of their governments entire budget is foreign aid, much from the US. They use that money to pay Chinese (not American) companies to build infrastructure. My Iraqi friends, particularly a friend from Mosul, criticized the US. Apparently the problem wasnt that the US came (Hussein was largely feared and hated, and abused his people), but that they didn't take enough control, and so left a power vacuum which was filled by criminals (which would probably happen in Venezuela). However more recently the downfall of ISIS can be credited to US intervention. My Libyan friends were frustrated by the US lack of intervention, though a little help was provided. It's amazing how oppressed people don't have a voice. I didn't know they hated Gaddafi until the revolution happened, then they were so incredibly passionate. South Korea. Or do you think North Korea is better? Every country in Europe. Especially Eastern Germany. But you deliberately exclude them. However a few eastern European countries had some US airstrikes to stop genocide, which actually seemed to work pretty well. Pretty much every developing country that has been peaceful and stable has received large amounts of monetary, economic, or other aid from the US. How do you quantify bad things that didn't happen? I would posit that since the end of WW2, the entire world on average has been more peaceful and prosperous than any other time in history. Billions pulled out of poverty. The vast majority of people living their entire lives without experiencing war. But again, for both the US and Venezuela's sake, I think it is important the Venezuelans fix this.
greeneggs 8y ago
We're on it: https://www.businessinsider.com/ap-us-official-trump-pressed-aides-about-venezuela-invasion-2018-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/ap-us-official-trump-pressed... > The US official said Trump was specifically briefed not to raise the issue and told it wouldn't play well, but the first thing the president said at the dinner was, "My staff told me not to say this." Trump then went around asking each leader if they were sure they didn't want a military solution… > For Maduro, who has long claimed that the US has military designs on Venezuela and its vast oil reserves, Trump's bellicose talk provided the unpopular leader with an immediate if short-lived boost as he was trying to escape blame for widespread food shortages and hyperinflation… > A few weeks after Trump's public comments, Harvard economics professor Ricardo Hausmann, a former Venezuelan planning minister, wrote a syndicated column titled "D Day Venezuela," in which he called for a "coalition of the willing" made up of regional powers and the US to step in and support militarily a government appointed by the opposition-led national assembly.
gruez 8y ago
see replies to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17600110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17600110
andrepd 8y ago
I'll mince no words: what an appallingly stupid idea. First of all, do you think the US would do anything about anything, out of the goodness of their heart? Hah. Maybe you believe their interventionism is part of their efforts to build world peace, or maybe to, how do they say, "spread freedom and democracy"? Such naivety. The US protects its own interests and those of its business owners. If that means overthrowing democratic governments, so be it, if that means genocide, so be it, etc. Second of all, the callousness with which you propose simply installing a puppet and letting the US govern the country is beyond description. Tell me, how would you feel if a foreign power decided you don't know how to govern your country, and that you need rescuing, and that from now on he would be in charge and dictate how your country gets run. Would you like it? If the answer is, as it must, "no I would not", then the only conclusion I can draw is that you view the Venezuelans as somehow incapable of making the right decisions and ruling themselves. As babies, or morons. Colonialist thinking, nothing else. Thirdly, your point about letting oil multinationals ransack the country, and how that would, somehow I guess, improve the lives of the population. I won't comment on this one, because I cannot even fathom the train if thought here.
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  > First of all, do you think the US would do anything about anything, out of the goodness of their heart? No, they would do it because there is massive money to be made. The Venezuelan people and oil reserves are a great untapped resource, no use letting an entire country go to waste. > the only conclusion I can draw is that you view the Venezuelans as somehow incapable of making the right decisions and ruling themselves. Isn't that blindingly obvious by now? What more evidence do you need in support? > I won't comment on this one, because I cannot even fathom the train if thought here. I never mentioned anything about "ransacking". Multinational companies are ultra-efficient and very beneficial to their employees and partners. Let them freely do what they do best, and they will generate great wealth in Venezuela. Everybody wins. The communists lose. What's not to like?

phyller 8y ago

And the moment that happens every single bad thing in Venezuela for the past 15 years and the future 1,000 years will be their fault. The entire world would condemn the USA as imperialists and there would be protests in the streets. Europeans would scoff at American brutality. And 5 more Chavezs with their socialist revolutions would be born, raging against US hegemony. That's what Chavez did in the first place, he was "protecting Venezuela from the imperialist USA". All the problems caused by his socialist revolution were actually because of US interference. There are still people today, here in this board, that believe that.

andrepd 8y ago
Name one (developing) country that was improved by US interventionism. I can name a dozen that were destroyed, ransacked by US businesses, genocides committed, etc.
- phyller 8y ago
  I was arguing against US intervention. But since you asked... Mali. When i was there the local pharmacist had a picture of president Ford, of all people, up. Turns out the US had run a program to eradicate a particularly nasty parasite in the region. They'd also built the road, the irrigation canals that allowed them to grow rice, and the bridge that connected them to the other markets. I'm American and i don't know this stuff, gauranteed this is not being reported in the foreign press. Kenya is one of the more stable countries as far as Africa goes. When i was there i was surprised to learn from the local newspaper that the majority of their governments entire budget is foreign aid, much from the US. They use that money to pay Chinese (not American) companies to build infrastructure. My Iraqi friends, particularly a friend from Mosul, criticized the US. Apparently the problem wasnt that the US came (Hussein was largely feared and hated, and abused his people), but that they didn't take enough control, and so left a power vacuum which was filled by criminals (which would probably happen in Venezuela). However more recently the downfall of ISIS can be credited to US intervention. My Libyan friends were frustrated by the US lack of intervention, though a little help was provided. It's amazing how oppressed people don't have a voice. I didn't know they hated Gaddafi until the revolution happened, then they were so incredibly passionate. South Korea. Or do you think North Korea is better? Every country in Europe. Especially Eastern Germany. But you deliberately exclude them. However a few eastern European countries had some US airstrikes to stop genocide, which actually seemed to work pretty well. Pretty much every developing country that has been peaceful and stable has received large amounts of monetary, economic, or other aid from the US. How do you quantify bad things that didn't happen? I would posit that since the end of WW2, the entire world on average has been more peaceful and prosperous than any other time in history. Billions pulled out of poverty. The vast majority of people living their entire lives without experiencing war. But again, for both the US and Venezuela's sake, I think it is important the Venezuelans fix this.

greeneggs 8y ago

We're on it: https://www.businessinsider.com/ap-us-official-trump-pressed-aides-about-venezuela-invasion-2018-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/ap-us-official-trump-pressed... > The US official said Trump was specifically briefed not to raise the issue and told it wouldn't play well, but the first thing the president said at the dinner was, "My staff told me not to say this." Trump then went around asking each leader if they were sure they didn't want a military solution… > For Maduro, who has long claimed that the US has military designs on Venezuela and its vast oil reserves, Trump's bellicose talk provided the unpopular leader with an immediate if short-lived boost as he was trying to escape blame for widespread food shortages and hyperinflation… > A few weeks after Trump's public comments, Harvard economics professor Ricardo Hausmann, a former Venezuelan planning minister, wrote a syndicated column titled "D Day Venezuela," in which he called for a "coalition of the willing" made up of regional powers and the US to step in and support militarily a government appointed by the opposition-led national assembly.

gruez 8y ago

see replies to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17600110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17600110

andrepd 8y ago

I'll mince no words: what an appallingly stupid idea. First of all, do you think the US would do anything about anything, out of the goodness of their heart? Hah. Maybe you believe their interventionism is part of their efforts to build world peace, or maybe to, how do they say, "spread freedom and democracy"? Such naivety. The US protects its own interests and those of its business owners. If that means overthrowing democratic governments, so be it, if that means genocide, so be it, etc. Second of all, the callousness with which you propose simply installing a puppet and letting the US govern the country is beyond description. Tell me, how would you feel if a foreign power decided you don't know how to govern your country, and that you need rescuing, and that from now on he would be in charge and dictate how your country gets run. Would you like it? If the answer is, as it must, "no I would not", then the only conclusion I can draw is that you view the Venezuelans as somehow incapable of making the right decisions and ruling themselves. As babies, or morons. Colonialist thinking, nothing else. Thirdly, your point about letting oil multinationals ransack the country, and how that would, somehow I guess, improve the lives of the population. I won't comment on this one, because I cannot even fathom the train if thought here.

dingo_bat 8y ago
> First of all, do you think the US would do anything about anything, out of the goodness of their heart? No, they would do it because there is massive money to be made. The Venezuelan people and oil reserves are a great untapped resource, no use letting an entire country go to waste. > the only conclusion I can draw is that you view the Venezuelans as somehow incapable of making the right decisions and ruling themselves. Isn't that blindingly obvious by now? What more evidence do you need in support? > I won't comment on this one, because I cannot even fathom the train if thought here. I never mentioned anything about "ransacking". Multinational companies are ultra-efficient and very beneficial to their employees and partners. Let them freely do what they do best, and they will generate great wealth in Venezuela. Everybody wins. The communists lose. What's not to like?