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Just what we needed - a Jewish Mother Teresa. I'm empathetic to his suffering and applaud that he's managed to find a way to see a bright side. But when anyone

by Elrac 8y ago

Just what we needed - a Jewish Mother Teresa. I'm empathetic to his suffering and applaud that he's managed to find a way to see a bright side. But when anyone goes from there to claiming that being in constant pain somehow makes you better, I see that as going overboard. It's that attitude - with a stronger religious slant and a good touch of stinginess - that led MfT to have her "hospitals" re-using dulled injection needles and not providing effective pain relievers. And blathering nonsense about the beauty of suffering. The idea that suffering is a good thing is pretty much the most perverted idea humans have come up with.

dalbasal 8y ago
I'm catholic, jewish & a hitch fan so I'll second that. We do not need a new theological motivation for suffering, deification of poverty or anything like that. I'm definitely not comfortable with "pain is the route of all blessings" talk. That said, there is an interesting, secular argument in here. We've been saying "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" for a while. Its not true. Some things make you weaker, but it's not all things. Psychological "post trauma" is almost defined as painful experiences leading to bad things. But, we can probably find the opposite too, if we look in to non pathological cases. Either direction count as transformation. Blathering nonsense about beauty (or worse, holiness) of suffering is a bad road. Understanding the non pathological (bad) results from suffering... that might be worthwhile. I agree though, lets not put clerics in charge of the language.
- zaarn 8y ago
  The phrase "what does not kill me makes me strong" comes from Nietzsche in the book "Twilight of the Idols". A book in which he criticizes christianity, going as far as comparing it to alcohol as the great narcotic of Europe. Nietzsche, IMO, was the sort that believed that suffering was sort of part of human experience. But not necessarily suffering as in pain, just any form of hardship you might encounter. A lack of suffering would be exemplified by the last men, a group of humans that eliminated all suffering, hardship or negativity in their lives, who take no risks and only seek comfort. (It's a fictional society made up by Zarathustra, a fictional character in Nietzsche's books, as the most disgusting example of the goals of western civilization)
  - dalbasal 8y ago
    Oh wow. Thats totally tangental, but I will look up that chapter. Interesting.
mockingbirdy 8y ago
Related SMBC: http://smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-06-27 http://smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-06-27 Fetishizing suffering if there's no way to mitigate the pain is actually a better strategy than being aware that it just sucks. If you can't really do anything about it, I think I would also start to talk like this. It's similar to "We're poor. Therefore, living in poverty is a virtue" - it's a reaction to a situation we're forced to be in. Seeing positive aspects in them gives us a way to cope with it - it's simply a coping mechanism so the mind doesn't lose its will to live. I'm not a fan of re-using injection needles, too. That's the problem I see with this coping mechanism: You have to be careful. You shouldn't use this thinking to lead your actions, it's only good for situations where you're not able to change anything or control it (like chronic pain).
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Another problem with coping mechanisms is that they can prevent you from solving the underlying problem. They're good when they're absolutely needed, but we should be wary of transplanting them into situations that do not need them.
sametmax 8y ago
Besides, the teaching of canonical religious figures is to learn to live despite unavoidable suffering. Not to embrace avoidable suffering, seek it or refuse to find relieve from it.
s-shellfish 8y ago
Honestly, I don't think anyone who suffers or sees suffering truly believes pushing someone in a path of suffering is the goal. I think it's always a convoluted process of reasoning to make sense of suffering that has happened and suffering that is happening, and to be able to make the most of suffering that is happening, if suffering is happening. No one would want to intentionally push themselves into their worst fears. The idea that suffering is good destroys the intent of the message. Suffering that has happened is something to turn into good because for many people, that's what they need to let go of the cyclical pattern in the mind that believes (I do my best to do things -> bad things happen) which can sort of get stuck for an individual that is looking for patterns that relate the self to other selves. All messages are an attempt to communicate that. Suffering that continues to happen is the mind playing tricks - the attempt to reason about suffering that is still happening, suffering that could happen, and suffering that might still be happening that the individual reasoning is either aware of, or not aware of. You can't ignore the fact that suffering exists even if you do not suffer. For some people, being aware of this fact is how they suffer (and now I have achieved semantic satiation but that is besides the point). I don't think it's anyone's intent to pervert having a good nature with good intentions. The problem is always, no one can know everything. You can beat yourself over the head with how every thought, action, and belief has consequences, see all the patterns, tie yourself to them, fear them, and perpetually dwell in suffering, but it doesn't make it true for a rabbi trying to reason morally in real time and for those that rabbi is around, nor does it make it true for you if you see those patterns. I've heard plenty of stories about mother teresa but it's not like I actually knew her. Belief systems that jump to the worst possible case (fear) are something that seem to haunt jewish people - it's reasonable to assume this comes from generational trauma, perpetual jewish diaspora. Important not to get it flipped on them.

by Elrac 8y ago

dalbasal 8y ago

I'm catholic, jewish & a hitch fan so I'll second that. We do not need a new theological motivation for suffering, deification of poverty or anything like that. I'm definitely not comfortable with "pain is the route of all blessings" talk. That said, there is an interesting, secular argument in here. We've been saying "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" for a while. Its not true. Some things make you weaker, but it's not all things. Psychological "post trauma" is almost defined as painful experiences leading to bad things. But, we can probably find the opposite too, if we look in to non pathological cases. Either direction count as transformation. Blathering nonsense about beauty (or worse, holiness) of suffering is a bad road. Understanding the non pathological (bad) results from suffering... that might be worthwhile. I agree though, lets not put clerics in charge of the language.

zaarn 8y ago
The phrase "what does not kill me makes me strong" comes from Nietzsche in the book "Twilight of the Idols". A book in which he criticizes christianity, going as far as comparing it to alcohol as the great narcotic of Europe. Nietzsche, IMO, was the sort that believed that suffering was sort of part of human experience. But not necessarily suffering as in pain, just any form of hardship you might encounter. A lack of suffering would be exemplified by the last men, a group of humans that eliminated all suffering, hardship or negativity in their lives, who take no risks and only seek comfort. (It's a fictional society made up by Zarathustra, a fictional character in Nietzsche's books, as the most disgusting example of the goals of western civilization)
- dalbasal 8y ago
  Oh wow. Thats totally tangental, but I will look up that chapter. Interesting.

mockingbirdy 8y ago

Related SMBC: http://smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-06-27 http://smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-06-27 Fetishizing suffering if there's no way to mitigate the pain is actually a better strategy than being aware that it just sucks. If you can't really do anything about it, I think I would also start to talk like this. It's similar to "We're poor. Therefore, living in poverty is a virtue" - it's a reaction to a situation we're forced to be in. Seeing positive aspects in them gives us a way to cope with it - it's simply a coping mechanism so the mind doesn't lose its will to live. I'm not a fan of re-using injection needles, too. That's the problem I see with this coping mechanism: You have to be careful. You shouldn't use this thinking to lead your actions, it's only good for situations where you're not able to change anything or control it (like chronic pain).

TeMPOraL 8y ago
Another problem with coping mechanisms is that they can prevent you from solving the underlying problem. They're good when they're absolutely needed, but we should be wary of transplanting them into situations that do not need them.

sametmax 8y ago

Besides, the teaching of canonical religious figures is to learn to live despite unavoidable suffering. Not to embrace avoidable suffering, seek it or refuse to find relieve from it.

s-shellfish 8y ago

Honestly, I don't think anyone who suffers or sees suffering truly believes pushing someone in a path of suffering is the goal. I think it's always a convoluted process of reasoning to make sense of suffering that has happened and suffering that is happening, and to be able to make the most of suffering that is happening, if suffering is happening. No one would want to intentionally push themselves into their worst fears. The idea that suffering is good destroys the intent of the message. Suffering that has happened is something to turn into good because for many people, that's what they need to let go of the cyclical pattern in the mind that believes (I do my best to do things -> bad things happen) which can sort of get stuck for an individual that is looking for patterns that relate the self to other selves. All messages are an attempt to communicate that. Suffering that continues to happen is the mind playing tricks - the attempt to reason about suffering that is still happening, suffering that could happen, and suffering that might still be happening that the individual reasoning is either aware of, or not aware of. You can't ignore the fact that suffering exists even if you do not suffer. For some people, being aware of this fact is how they suffer (and now I have achieved semantic satiation but that is besides the point). I don't think it's anyone's intent to pervert having a good nature with good intentions. The problem is always, no one can know everything. You can beat yourself over the head with how every thought, action, and belief has consequences, see all the patterns, tie yourself to them, fear them, and perpetually dwell in suffering, but it doesn't make it true for a rabbi trying to reason morally in real time and for those that rabbi is around, nor does it make it true for you if you see those patterns. I've heard plenty of stories about mother teresa but it's not like I actually knew her. Belief systems that jump to the worst possible case (fear) are something that seem to haunt jewish people - it's reasonable to assume this comes from generational trauma, perpetual jewish diaspora. Important not to get it flipped on them.