5 ms·

"We don't teach English classes with the intent or expectation of turning all of the students into professional literary critics, and we don't make everyone tak

by astine 16y ago

"We don't teach English classes with the intent or expectation of turning all of the students into professional literary critics, and we don't make everyone take algebra because we think they will or should all become mathematicians." That's right, we teach English because we expect students to be able to read and write and speak cogently. We teach algebra because we expect them to be able to use it in most jobs that will be available to them. We should teach programming because... We you know? It really isn't quite as urgent. I believe that kids should be taught just enough about computers, including programming, so that they are demystified. A student in high school doesn't need programming as a skill, but he doesn't need to know that a computer is a tool to be manipulated, not an 'experience' to be bought. One course in Python in high school would enough for this, but more valuable possibly would just be teaching them that can open up the command line once in a while.

sprout 16y ago
>We should teach programming because... We you know? It really isn't quite as urgent. 90% of office workers would benefit from the ability to write an Excel Macro. I don't even think that's a hard sell. Any businessman who understands what Excel does would understand that. Of course, long term Excel is a toy, and there are all sorts of benefits to be had from more general tools like Python.
- wazoox 16y ago
  > Of course, long term Excel is a toy [...] I too, would like this to be true. However, the unfortunate truth is that the main market for windows-based HPC is... monstrous, clusterized excel computations.
  - sprout 16y ago
    I'm just sort of pining for a far flung day after programming becomes established as an ordinary middle-school and high-school class, and those students grow up and become MBAs and CEOs. For now we have Excel. :)
rwl 16y ago
> We should teach programming because... We you know? It really isn't quite as urgent. Well, if you only focus on job preparation, maybe. But education is not just supposed to prepare people for work; it's supposed to prepare them to be good citizens. That requires teaching students a whole variety of skills, but it particularly requires teaching them analytic modes of thought. Learning how to program means learning how to think in new ways. Generally speaking, those modes of thought are not taught in other educational disciplines: e.g., solving problems via recursion or iteration, and algorithmic thinking generally. So CS education fills a niche that, in large part, would otherwise go unfilled. Coupled with its more "practical" economic benefits, offering it seems like a no brainer to me.
- kiba 16y ago
  Well, if you only focus on job preparation, maybe. But education is not just supposed to prepare people for work; it's supposed to prepare them to be good citizens. That requires teaching students a whole variety of skills, but it particularly requires teaching them analytic modes of thought. Being a good "citizen" is a full time job, and a job which pretty much everyone fail at. Everybody need to specialize or find themselves a niche within the economy and get good at what they do so they don't get out-competed. "Citizenship" knowledge just get swept by the wayside. I don't much about foreign policies, domestic issues, drugs, nor do I have time to learn the shenanigan of elected officials, etc. I know computer programming. I also know attempts by self-interested people who try to get a piece of the pie at the expense of the public in my domain. Software patents and intellectual property right in general are what I am really informed about. The issue of "governing" should take care of itself much like every other profession take care to solve other people's problem instead of expecting entire people to be wise in governing. Knowledge in our economy's workforce is diffused. Nobody know how to make a pencil, but there are lot of people who knows how to make part of the pencils, or make possible making pencils. Nobody will learn how to make all part of the pencils, because people gain from specialization and division of labor. We shouldn't expect the masses to be reasonably wise and strong enough to guard their interests from harmful special interest. Forget the concept of citizenship duty and rework the system according to the real strength and limitation of the people.
kenjackson 16y ago
I think we teach programming because it helps people: Understand that there are such concise ways articulating thoughts that every letter means something, and the thought must be fully specified. And what can go wrong with simple logic mistakes -- and likewise how things can seem to work just fine despite the existence of certain classes of mistakes.
halostatue 16y ago
> We should teach programming because... We you know? It really isn't quite as urgent. ...because we expect people to be able to reason through problems and understand that the computer isn't magic.

by astine 16y ago

sprout 16y ago

>We should teach programming because... We you know? It really isn't quite as urgent. 90% of office workers would benefit from the ability to write an Excel Macro. I don't even think that's a hard sell. Any businessman who understands what Excel does would understand that. Of course, long term Excel is a toy, and there are all sorts of benefits to be had from more general tools like Python.

wazoox 16y ago
> Of course, long term Excel is a toy [...] I too, would like this to be true. However, the unfortunate truth is that the main market for windows-based HPC is... monstrous, clusterized excel computations.
- sprout 16y ago
  I'm just sort of pining for a far flung day after programming becomes established as an ordinary middle-school and high-school class, and those students grow up and become MBAs and CEOs. For now we have Excel. :)

rwl 16y ago

> We should teach programming because... We you know? It really isn't quite as urgent. Well, if you only focus on job preparation, maybe. But education is not just supposed to prepare people for work; it's supposed to prepare them to be good citizens. That requires teaching students a whole variety of skills, but it particularly requires teaching them analytic modes of thought. Learning how to program means learning how to think in new ways. Generally speaking, those modes of thought are not taught in other educational disciplines: e.g., solving problems via recursion or iteration, and algorithmic thinking generally. So CS education fills a niche that, in large part, would otherwise go unfilled. Coupled with its more "practical" economic benefits, offering it seems like a no brainer to me.

kiba 16y ago
Well, if you only focus on job preparation, maybe. But education is not just supposed to prepare people for work; it's supposed to prepare them to be good citizens. That requires teaching students a whole variety of skills, but it particularly requires teaching them analytic modes of thought. Being a good "citizen" is a full time job, and a job which pretty much everyone fail at. Everybody need to specialize or find themselves a niche within the economy and get good at what they do so they don't get out-competed. "Citizenship" knowledge just get swept by the wayside. I don't much about foreign policies, domestic issues, drugs, nor do I have time to learn the shenanigan of elected officials, etc. I know computer programming. I also know attempts by self-interested people who try to get a piece of the pie at the expense of the public in my domain. Software patents and intellectual property right in general are what I am really informed about. The issue of "governing" should take care of itself much like every other profession take care to solve other people's problem instead of expecting entire people to be wise in governing. Knowledge in our economy's workforce is diffused. Nobody know how to make a pencil, but there are lot of people who knows how to make part of the pencils, or make possible making pencils. Nobody will learn how to make all part of the pencils, because people gain from specialization and division of labor. We shouldn't expect the masses to be reasonably wise and strong enough to guard their interests from harmful special interest. Forget the concept of citizenship duty and rework the system according to the real strength and limitation of the people.

kenjackson 16y ago

I think we teach programming because it helps people: Understand that there are such concise ways articulating thoughts that every letter means something, and the thought must be fully specified. And what can go wrong with simple logic mistakes -- and likewise how things can seem to work just fine despite the existence of certain classes of mistakes.

halostatue 16y ago

> We should teach programming because... We you know? It really isn't quite as urgent. ...because we expect people to be able to reason through problems and understand that the computer isn't magic.