5 ms·

It may not be the fundamental problem, but plea deals are still horribly unjust. They are punishment for asserting your rights. They should never have been allo

It may not be the fundamental problem, but plea deals are still horribly unjust. They are punishment for asserting your rights. They should never have been allowed and should be abolished.

pvg 8y ago
Ok, you feel strongly about plea deals but I still don't understand what the theory of supposed injustice is supposed to be. Why aren't people like Ken White railing against plea deals? Or maybe some are? Etc.
- Digory 8y ago
  Harvard's Bill Stuntz wrote about plea bargains extensively before his death.[1] His last book was the "Collapse of American Criminal Justice." The issue isn't the plea bargain itself, but the incentives to make lots of 'suboptimal' deals. I've seen similar, recent arguments about whether #MeToo perpetrators should be allowed to settle with victims, because of our public interest in identifying attackers. All things being equal, negotiated resolutions are great. But politics, over-criminalization, career incentives, and budget pressure swamp any real negotiating power by defendants. No one wants to kill any individual's deal. But the deals are the best way to 'see' the effect of the system's incentives. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/4093405?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/4093405?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con...
  - pvg 8y ago
    Thanks, I'll check it out. Curiously, Stuntz's names pops up in one of the article linked in thread by the cursory googlemaster as a supporter (presumably in fair conditions) plea bargains.
- crunchatized 8y ago
  Critics of the criminal justice system have been railing against the utterly lopsided plea bargaining system, among many other CJ issues that all serve to prop up the others. Some cursory googling turns up: https://www.jstor.org/stable/796954 https://www.jstor.org/stable/796954 https://reason.com/archives/2011/07/05/the-devils-bargain https://reason.com/archives/2011/07/05/the-devils-bargain https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-prosecutors-push-for-plea-bargains.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-p... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/opinion/sunday/go-to-trial-crash-the-justice-system.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/opinion/sunday/go-to-tria... https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-people-plead-guilty/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-peo... https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargaining-and-the-innocent https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargainin... https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-injustice-of-the-plea-bargain-system-1449188034 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-injustice-of-the-plea-barga... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocence-is-irrelevant/534171/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocen... https://www.injusticewatch.org/interactives/2018/plea-bargain/baltimore.html https://www.injusticewatch.org/interactives/2018/plea-bargai...
  - pvg 8y ago
    I haven't gone through every single one of these with a fine toothed comb but none seem to have a problem with plea bargaining itself - the root problems they describe are things like draconian sentences, overly broad prosecutorial discretion, outright fabrication of evidence, etc. The remedy suggested by the poster above - just getting rid of plea bargains isn't going to help in the cases described by these articles.
- mikeash 8y ago
  The injustice is that they result in punishment for asserting your right to a trial.
  - pvg 8y ago
    This 'argument' reminds me a bit of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZy_VR1ifPc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZy_VR1ifPc
    - mikeash 8y ago
      Scare quotes and an undescriptive link to a random YouTube video... if you want to actually have a conversation here, this is not the way to do it.
      - pvg 8y ago
        I asked you a question and you basically repeated 'it is wrong'. And they're not 'scare quotes', your response is not an argument and not an invitation to conversation.
        mikeash 8y ago
        You asked what was unjust about it and I answered. It’s repetitive because I assumed you had missed it in my first comment, otherwise you wouldn’t have asked. If this answer is not satisfactory to you then perhaps you could tell me what you’re after. Because as far as I can tell, this is a really simple question and answer. What is unjust? Punishing people for asserting their right to trial. Boom, done. If you want more, ask for it.

It may not be the fundamental problem, but plea deals are still horribly unjust. They are punishment for asserting your rights. They should never have been allowed and should be abolished.

pvg 8y ago

Ok, you feel strongly about plea deals but I still don't understand what the theory of supposed injustice is supposed to be. Why aren't people like Ken White railing against plea deals? Or maybe some are? Etc.

Digory 8y ago
Harvard's Bill Stuntz wrote about plea bargains extensively before his death.[1] His last book was the "Collapse of American Criminal Justice." The issue isn't the plea bargain itself, but the incentives to make lots of 'suboptimal' deals. I've seen similar, recent arguments about whether #MeToo perpetrators should be allowed to settle with victims, because of our public interest in identifying attackers. All things being equal, negotiated resolutions are great. But politics, over-criminalization, career incentives, and budget pressure swamp any real negotiating power by defendants. No one wants to kill any individual's deal. But the deals are the best way to 'see' the effect of the system's incentives. [1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/4093405?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/4093405?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con...
- pvg 8y ago
  Thanks, I'll check it out. Curiously, Stuntz's names pops up in one of the article linked in thread by the cursory googlemaster as a supporter (presumably in fair conditions) plea bargains.
crunchatized 8y ago
Critics of the criminal justice system have been railing against the utterly lopsided plea bargaining system, among many other CJ issues that all serve to prop up the others. Some cursory googling turns up: https://www.jstor.org/stable/796954 https://www.jstor.org/stable/796954 https://reason.com/archives/2011/07/05/the-devils-bargain https://reason.com/archives/2011/07/05/the-devils-bargain https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-prosecutors-push-for-plea-bargains.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-p... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/opinion/sunday/go-to-trial-crash-the-justice-system.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/opinion/sunday/go-to-tria... https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-people-plead-guilty/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/11/20/why-innocent-peo... https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargaining-and-the-innocent https://www.themarshallproject.org/2014/12/26/plea-bargainin... https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-injustice-of-the-plea-bargain-system-1449188034 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-injustice-of-the-plea-barga... https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocence-is-irrelevant/534171/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocen... https://www.injusticewatch.org/interactives/2018/plea-bargain/baltimore.html https://www.injusticewatch.org/interactives/2018/plea-bargai...
- pvg 8y ago
  I haven't gone through every single one of these with a fine toothed comb but none seem to have a problem with plea bargaining itself - the root problems they describe are things like draconian sentences, overly broad prosecutorial discretion, outright fabrication of evidence, etc. The remedy suggested by the poster above - just getting rid of plea bargains isn't going to help in the cases described by these articles.
mikeash 8y ago
The injustice is that they result in punishment for asserting your right to a trial.
- pvg 8y ago
  This 'argument' reminds me a bit of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZy_VR1ifPc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZy_VR1ifPc
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Scare quotes and an undescriptive link to a random YouTube video... if you want to actually have a conversation here, this is not the way to do it.
    - pvg 8y ago
      I asked you a question and you basically repeated 'it is wrong'. And they're not 'scare quotes', your response is not an argument and not an invitation to conversation.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        You asked what was unjust about it and I answered. It’s repetitive because I assumed you had missed it in my first comment, otherwise you wouldn’t have asked. If this answer is not satisfactory to you then perhaps you could tell me what you’re after. Because as far as I can tell, this is a really simple question and answer. What is unjust? Punishing people for asserting their right to trial. Boom, done. If you want more, ask for it.