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In your example you're assuming that there is monopoly control over whatever product you're trying to buy. But that's usually not the case: there is more than o

In your example you're assuming that there is monopoly control over whatever product you're trying to buy. But that's usually not the case: there is more than one airline, for example. If it were possible to market products exclusively to people who wanted that exact product, companies would no longer need to waste money on broadly targeted advertising and compete more directly on price and product features and not on marketing budget. You would get "paid" in cost savings. Of course that's generally not really possible no matter how much of your data marketers could reasonably know about. A grab bag of "data" from an individual person barely predicts much of anything, which is the real reason there isn't much of a market for it.

bumholio 8y ago
Indeed - but markets are rarely perfectly competitive, to negate any advantage price discrimination can bring. For example, it's often the case a route/date combo is offered by a single airline. I also agree that information can be beneficial for me, helping companies finding me easier without spending on advertising etc. But in that case, I would simply give that information away and share it as broadly as possible (for example, by searching multiple sites for the products I am interested in); so that side of the coin is not relevant for someone selling his information.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  You can buy the ticket anonymously. There doesn't have to be any link between data about your grandfather and your identity you're using to buy the ticket. Why would you even give anyone data about your grandparents?
  - chimeracoder 8y ago
    > You can buy the ticket anonymously. There doesn't have to be any link between data about your grandfather and your identity you're using to buy the ticket. How do you propose buying an airplane ticket anonymously?
    - croddin 8y ago
      On some booking sites it might actually be a good idea to open them in incognito mode, and you can get a quote without them using data linked to you.
      - mtgx 8y ago
        I've noticed tracking that can track across browsers and their incognito modes even with ublock origin enabled. It may have tracked me by ip, I don't know but I feel like we're getting to the point where the existing incognito modes are useless.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      Today: Anonymous mode. I've maybe chosen a wrong word. I meant independently from your "other" identity.
      - chimeracoder 8y ago
        > Today: Anonymous mode. I've maybe chosen a wrong word. I meant independently from your "other" identity. Well, except for the part where you have to enter your legal name and date of birth.
        endless1234 8y ago
        So would the store inflate the price after you entered your name, or not show any price before entering a name? Neither is probably that good for business
        TomMarius 8y ago
        And you entered your legal name and birth to your email provider? You provided your email company that you know is selling this data with all this? Why?
  - majormajor 8y ago
    Company X manages your email. Company Y is a data broker (several of these exist already). Company Z sells airline tickets. Company X scrapes your email and sells information about you to Company Y to boost their bottom line. Company Z buys information from company Y to target their marketing efforts. Much of the adtech industry is based around interchange like this (but often with even more, and more confusing, layers). Currently Google and Facebook are a bit different - they sell targeting profiles and serve the ads themselves, instead of directly selling your data - but it's worth thinking about how much you trust them to stay that way.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      Just use secure e-mail. No company is selling my e-mail to anyone. Anyone can make this choice, and anyone can also host their own - either you get an unlimited mailbox for free, but of course your data is sold (they need to pay for it somehow), or you pay a few dollars and your data stays yours. It's your choice, we don't need regulations for that. I want to have that choice in my hands.
      - yborg 8y ago
        I don't think this solution works in the current economy - you would also have to refuse to ever exchange email with anyone using a monetized-data email service, i.e. Facebook, Google, etc. Given the wide market control these players have, most people would find it difficult to communicate. I think controls have to be legislated, as the EU has just done.
        TomMarius 8y ago
        Or just use a secondary address. But yeah, you have to make a decision, either you really do care about your data, or you don't, just like the people who don't use FB today. You shouldn't put the burden of your decision on others, others might not care about things you care as is apparent from GDPR. Anecdote: People on sites where I can see the numbers don't care about their data, they want the GDPR thingy away ASAP and will click on anything that makes it disappear, selling even more data than before in the process. Including me. I despise the popups, it's extremely annoying. I protect myself technologically and with common sense, like my parents teached me to - I don't put personal information in places where I don't believe it's safe. It's that easy.
  - syrrim 8y ago
    Easy solution: sell the tickets at an inflated price normally, then give discounts to people who you think wouldn't buy otherwise. Require these people show their ID at check-in. This will cause people to willingly give over their data/identity in order to receive discounts - not realizing that if they acted as a class and bought anonomously they would recieve (on average) lower prices. Of course such class action is impossible because it will always benefit some segment to defect, which will inflate the price for the rest, causing more to defect.
    - TomMarius 8y ago
      I still don't get how they would get your data that you never entered into any system that sells them, or how they connect the two identities together.
jarfil 8y ago
There may be more than one airline, but quite often there is just a single airline that meets the criteria for the flight and service quality you require. Even when there are competing companies, being able to accurately quantify how much are you willing to pay, would allow companies to always charge max price, just by setting their "normal prices" much higher and then offering you personalized "discounts". With multiple companies buying your data from intermediary brokers, it would effectively become a way of per-customer price fixing, while at the same time reducing competition when only a single company gets your data and presents you with an offer you can (barely) accept.
karmakaze 8y ago
> there is more than one airline, for example True, but there could be a centralized market for data that all airlines buy from.
Vinnl 8y ago
> But that's usually not the case: there is more than one airline, for example. I am afraid we are moving to a world where that is somewhat the case. Not that there's a single airline, but where there's a single place to book an airline ticket, a single place to book accommodation, or a single place to book a taxi, for instance. The intermediary (e.g. Airbnb, Uber, etc.) can then jack up their commission as far as possible based on your profile. Users can't move because all suppliers are using that intermediary, and suppliers are forced to use that intermediary because that's where the clients are. Meanwhile, intermediary's are able to extract everything that's currently going into people's savings accounts.

bumholio 8y ago

Indeed - but markets are rarely perfectly competitive, to negate any advantage price discrimination can bring. For example, it's often the case a route/date combo is offered by a single airline. I also agree that information can be beneficial for me, helping companies finding me easier without spending on advertising etc. But in that case, I would simply give that information away and share it as broadly as possible (for example, by searching multiple sites for the products I am interested in); so that side of the coin is not relevant for someone selling his information.

TomMarius 8y ago
You can buy the ticket anonymously. There doesn't have to be any link between data about your grandfather and your identity you're using to buy the ticket. Why would you even give anyone data about your grandparents?
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > You can buy the ticket anonymously. There doesn't have to be any link between data about your grandfather and your identity you're using to buy the ticket. How do you propose buying an airplane ticket anonymously?
  - croddin 8y ago
    On some booking sites it might actually be a good idea to open them in incognito mode, and you can get a quote without them using data linked to you.
    - mtgx 8y ago
      I've noticed tracking that can track across browsers and their incognito modes even with ublock origin enabled. It may have tracked me by ip, I don't know but I feel like we're getting to the point where the existing incognito modes are useless.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Today: Anonymous mode. I've maybe chosen a wrong word. I meant independently from your "other" identity.
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      > Today: Anonymous mode. I've maybe chosen a wrong word. I meant independently from your "other" identity. Well, except for the part where you have to enter your legal name and date of birth.
      - endless1234 8y ago
        So would the store inflate the price after you entered your name, or not show any price before entering a name? Neither is probably that good for business
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        And you entered your legal name and birth to your email provider? You provided your email company that you know is selling this data with all this? Why?
- majormajor 8y ago
  Company X manages your email. Company Y is a data broker (several of these exist already). Company Z sells airline tickets. Company X scrapes your email and sells information about you to Company Y to boost their bottom line. Company Z buys information from company Y to target their marketing efforts. Much of the adtech industry is based around interchange like this (but often with even more, and more confusing, layers). Currently Google and Facebook are a bit different - they sell targeting profiles and serve the ads themselves, instead of directly selling your data - but it's worth thinking about how much you trust them to stay that way.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Just use secure e-mail. No company is selling my e-mail to anyone. Anyone can make this choice, and anyone can also host their own - either you get an unlimited mailbox for free, but of course your data is sold (they need to pay for it somehow), or you pay a few dollars and your data stays yours. It's your choice, we don't need regulations for that. I want to have that choice in my hands.
    - yborg 8y ago
      I don't think this solution works in the current economy - you would also have to refuse to ever exchange email with anyone using a monetized-data email service, i.e. Facebook, Google, etc. Given the wide market control these players have, most people would find it difficult to communicate. I think controls have to be legislated, as the EU has just done.
      - TomMarius 8y ago
        Or just use a secondary address. But yeah, you have to make a decision, either you really do care about your data, or you don't, just like the people who don't use FB today. You shouldn't put the burden of your decision on others, others might not care about things you care as is apparent from GDPR. Anecdote: People on sites where I can see the numbers don't care about their data, they want the GDPR thingy away ASAP and will click on anything that makes it disappear, selling even more data than before in the process. Including me. I despise the popups, it's extremely annoying. I protect myself technologically and with common sense, like my parents teached me to - I don't put personal information in places where I don't believe it's safe. It's that easy.
- syrrim 8y ago
  Easy solution: sell the tickets at an inflated price normally, then give discounts to people who you think wouldn't buy otherwise. Require these people show their ID at check-in. This will cause people to willingly give over their data/identity in order to receive discounts - not realizing that if they acted as a class and bought anonomously they would recieve (on average) lower prices. Of course such class action is impossible because it will always benefit some segment to defect, which will inflate the price for the rest, causing more to defect.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    I still don't get how they would get your data that you never entered into any system that sells them, or how they connect the two identities together.

jarfil 8y ago

There may be more than one airline, but quite often there is just a single airline that meets the criteria for the flight and service quality you require. Even when there are competing companies, being able to accurately quantify how much are you willing to pay, would allow companies to always charge max price, just by setting their "normal prices" much higher and then offering you personalized "discounts". With multiple companies buying your data from intermediary brokers, it would effectively become a way of per-customer price fixing, while at the same time reducing competition when only a single company gets your data and presents you with an offer you can (barely) accept.

karmakaze 8y ago

> there is more than one airline, for example True, but there could be a centralized market for data that all airlines buy from.

Vinnl 8y ago

> But that's usually not the case: there is more than one airline, for example. I am afraid we are moving to a world where that is somewhat the case. Not that there's a single airline, but where there's a single place to book an airline ticket, a single place to book accommodation, or a single place to book a taxi, for instance. The intermediary (e.g. Airbnb, Uber, etc.) can then jack up their commission as far as possible based on your profile. Users can't move because all suppliers are using that intermediary, and suppliers are forced to use that intermediary because that's where the clients are. Meanwhile, intermediary's are able to extract everything that's currently going into people's savings accounts.