7 ms·

The jury is still out on microkernels being "gravely ill-advised". Fuchsia, for example, is a modern microkernel that works quite well. The performance concern

The jury is still out on microkernels being "gravely ill-advised". Fuchsia, for example, is a modern microkernel that works quite well. The performance concerns that famously killed the microkernel hype are very old at this point. Modern hardware significantly reduces IPC overhead. And lots of the modern application stack (e.g. multiprocess browsers) essentially cobble together microkernel primitives out of comparatively-clunky OS features (e.g. cmsg on Unix). I think most of Linux's success relative to microkernel designs was due to being in the right place at the right time, not due to any fundamental technical factors.

nickpsecurity 8y ago
It might be for some things like performance but they're very successful for small, reliable OS's in embedded scene. Tanenbaum cited a bunch in round 2 of the debate with Torvalds: https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/ https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/
module0000 8y ago
> The jury is still out on microkernels being "gravely ill-advised". Fuchsia, for example, is a modern microkernel that works quite well. They could have said "gravely ill-adopted". You know what they meant and are grinding your personal axe here... Microkernels for all their promise aren't in widespread use. Engineers with a resume headline "I build monolithic kernel operating systems for fun" vs "I build microkernel operating systems for fun" will have significant hiring delta biased towards the monolithic specialists.
- meken 8y ago
  I think if you have the title "I build X kernel operating systems for fun" as a resume headline, you are in high demand regardless of X.
- pcwalton 8y ago
  > Engineers with a resume headline "I build monolithic kernel operating systems for fun" vs "I build microkernel operating systems for fun" will have significant hiring delta biased towards the monolithic specialists. No, they won't.
- jdub 8y ago
  Practically every modern phone platform happens to include a microkernel. Pretty widespread.
- JdeBP 8y ago
  > Microkernels for all their promise aren't in widespread use. Ah, you haven't heard about MINIX, the operating system used in the ME in modern Intel chipsets and possibly now one of the most widely deployed operating systems on the planet. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642116 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15634014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15634014 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15697888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15697888 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15641592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15641592
  - oblio 8y ago
    The thing that everyone hates and wishes wasn't there?
    - pcwalton 8y ago
      It would be worse if it were a monolithic kernel. If you're going to deploy an always-on OS in the firmware, you should at least use an OS that obeys a sensible principle of least privilege.
JdeBP 8y ago
I remember vezzy-fnord on this subject. * https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/ https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/ (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10824382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10824382) * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10301375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10301375
mwcampbell 8y ago
> Modern hardware significantly reduces IPC overhead. In case you see this comment 5 days later, can you elaborate? And do the benefits of modern hardware in this area automatically apply to IPC on existing mainstream systems, or does the OS have to specifically use the new support?

nickpsecurity 8y ago

It might be for some things like performance but they're very successful for small, reliable OS's in embedded scene. Tanenbaum cited a bunch in round 2 of the debate with Torvalds: https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/ https://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/reliable-os/

module0000 8y ago

> The jury is still out on microkernels being "gravely ill-advised". Fuchsia, for example, is a modern microkernel that works quite well. They could have said "gravely ill-adopted". You know what they meant and are grinding your personal axe here... Microkernels for all their promise aren't in widespread use. Engineers with a resume headline "I build monolithic kernel operating systems for fun" vs "I build microkernel operating systems for fun" will have significant hiring delta biased towards the monolithic specialists.

meken 8y ago
I think if you have the title "I build X kernel operating systems for fun" as a resume headline, you are in high demand regardless of X.
pcwalton 8y ago
> Engineers with a resume headline "I build monolithic kernel operating systems for fun" vs "I build microkernel operating systems for fun" will have significant hiring delta biased towards the monolithic specialists. No, they won't.
jdub 8y ago
Practically every modern phone platform happens to include a microkernel. Pretty widespread.
JdeBP 8y ago
> Microkernels for all their promise aren't in widespread use. Ah, you haven't heard about MINIX, the operating system used in the ME in modern Intel chipsets and possibly now one of the most widely deployed operating systems on the planet. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642116 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15634014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15634014 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15697888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15697888 * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15641592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15641592
- oblio 8y ago
  The thing that everyone hates and wishes wasn't there?
  - pcwalton 8y ago
    It would be worse if it were a monolithic kernel. If you're going to deploy an always-on OS in the firmware, you should at least use an OS that obeys a sensible principle of least privilege.

JdeBP 8y ago

I remember vezzy-fnord on this subject. * https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/ https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2016/01/01/0/ (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10824382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10824382) * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10301375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10301375

mwcampbell 8y ago

> Modern hardware significantly reduces IPC overhead. In case you see this comment 5 days later, can you elaborate? And do the benefits of modern hardware in this area automatically apply to IPC on existing mainstream systems, or does the OS have to specifically use the new support?