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I was discussing this with my Catalan friend, that from the outside world their declaration of independence looks comical, because Catalonia doesn't act like a

by 21 8y ago

I was discussing this with my Catalan friend, that from the outside world their declaration of independence looks comical, because Catalonia doesn't act like a real country in any shape or form, unlike Somaliland here. Now I get it that Catalonia is inside a powerful state and you can't just do "country things", but still.

dudul 8y ago
Can you elaborate a little what you mean by "doesn't act like a real country"? My understanding is that provinces in Spain actually enjoy quite a lot of autonomy in regards to how they organize their operations/policies. Catalonia promotes its own language in schools, they even have some form of foreign affairs with other governments. What do you think is missing? And just to be clear, I also thought the declaration of independence was really comical :)
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  My understanding is that it's a bit like Texas or California or New York dreaming that they could be their own separate countries. If you live in one of these places it's easy to put on rose colored glasses and dream. But are they really going to put up a border wall, close off economically, form their own military, et al, et al? Their prosperity is based in large part on integration into the union. They will always be dependent on it in some form, even if they achieved political independence. Unlike Somaliland, which really has no use for it's neighbor and the realities on the ground reflect that.
  - _delirium 8y ago
    That's true, but in the modern era the Catalan form of independentism (like the Scottish and Flemish ones) is an aspiration to be an independent country still tightly integrated within the EU as the overarching supra-national framework, so there wouldn't really be a goal to put up border walls or be capable of militarily defending the border, any more than Luxembourg does either of those things. The hope was that as nations integrate closer into the EU, the EU picks up many of the traditional responsibilities of a nation (external border, customs, trade agreements, etc.), making it more viable for regions to detach from countries that themselves partly function as federations (like Spain, the UK, and Belgium) and just become direct members of the top-level federation. Now it's quite possible that political or procedural reasons (like the ease of vetoing new EU members) mean this is unlikely to happen, but it's generally the envisioned route that independence supporters in these regions have.
    - Uberphallus 8y ago
      > but in the modern era the Catalan form of independentism [...] is an aspiration to be an independent country still tightly integrated within the EU Yes, but that's why it's dreaming: if Catalonia unilaterally left Spain, Spain would veto the Catalan entry in the EU (and not only Spain, any country with separatism, e.g. France/Corsica). That would force them indeed to put up walls and borders, develop a military, extend all the missing police force, and get systematically the short end of the stick in any trade deal because of its very little leverage. An unilateral leave of Catalonia from Spain is not far from Brexit in shortsightedness.
      - dmurray 8y ago
        > Yes, but that's why it's dreaming: if Catalonia unilaterally left Spain, Spain would veto the Catalan entry in the EU (and not only Spain, any country with separatism, e.g. France/Corsica). Only out of spite, though. If Catalonia were to be independent, Spain would gain from it joining the EU. Their commitment to keeping them out of the EU is there to deter them from leaving Spain in the first place, which likely would be bad for Spain. Spain is working much harder to make a believable deterrent than other "countries with separatism". You don't have France, Denmark or the UK refusing to recognize Kosovo, for example.
        dotemacs 8y ago
        > You don't have France, Denmark or the UK refusing to recognize Kosovo, for example. Of course not. They, the UK in particular, were essential in creating it and actively encouraged it from ceding from Serbia. It's their baby. Why would they not recognise it? There is at least 9 Albanian children from Kosovo and Metohija, southern Serbian province, who have been named "Tonyblair" (no, not misspell). In the honour of Tony Blair. See: http://albanmuja.blogspot.com/2011/11/tonys.html http://albanmuja.blogspot.com/2011/11/tonys.html
        dmurray 8y ago
        Spain were also involved, at least in the bombing campaign against Serbia. It's pretty easy for a government to take one point of view when creating a problem and the other when addressing it. You might as well ask why the US would try to undermine the Taliban.
  - matthewmacleod 8y ago
    As a determined supporter of Scottish independence, I obviously disagree with that assessment :) Independence doesn’t mean that countries become completely detached from their neighbours. In Catalonia for example the assumption is that both the new country and the remainder of Spain would remain members of the EU and the associated intergovernmental machinery that brings. That means no border guards or economic walls! In the Scottish case, for example, it’s worth bearing in mind that as a country it already has an entirely separate government, legal system, healthcare and education systems. Is it such a big leap to imagine that a separate foreign policy and military organisation might be feasible?
    - Tomte 8y ago
      > In Catalonia for example the assumption is that both the new country and the remainder of Spain would remain members of the EU and the associated intergovernmental machinery that brings. That is simply impossible, unless Spain agrees. That means Catalonia would need goodwill from the Spaniards, and that means the separation would have to be amicable. I don't see the Catalans going that route. No matter that Spain may be "more at fault" (if you lean towards the Catalan side), unless they can defuse the situation completely, they are dreaming a very, very dangerous dream. I suppose they wouldn't starve, at least. The other European countries (at some point even including Spain) would send food aid. :-) The Scottish referendum was completely different: Westminster had already agreed to accept the separation. Without enthusiasm, but still.
      - vidarh 8y ago
        > That is simply impossible, unless Spain agrees. So it's not impossible. > I don't see the Catalans going that route. It may not start down that route, but realistically there is no other route. It may be that it takes some unrest to force everyone to take negotiations seriously, but there's no realistic prospect of Catalonia forcing independence via civil war or revolution.
        Tomte 8y ago
        In the same sense as it's not impossible that I'm a green-blooded alien that's currently employed in taking over earth, sure.
  - paidleaf 8y ago
    > But are they really going to put up a border wall, close off economically, form their own military, et al, et al? Those states already have borders and militaries. Also, why does independence mean "closing off economically"? > Their prosperity is based in large part on integration into the union. Canada's prosperity is more dependent on the US than california, ny or texas is. Are you saying canada is not a country? Also, you are forgetting that texas used to be a country and tried to become a country during the civil war. American states are structured as independent nations. They have their borders, flags, histories. They have their own executive ( governor ), legislative branch, militaries ( national guards/etc ), etc. Perhaps a better argument would be canada's first "nations" or our native american "nations" dreaming of independence.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      > why does independence mean "closing off economically" Because they'd be sitting right in between EU countries. So hard borders all around, no trade deals in place, nothing. It would be like a no-deal Brexit, but infinitely worse.
      - paidleaf 8y ago
        > Because they'd be sitting right in between EU countries EU? The guy was talking about texas, california and ny. > So hard borders all around, no trade deals in place, nothing. So they'll just negotiate trade deals? > It would be like a no-deal Brexit, but infinitely worse. You gave no reason why it would be worse. Also, post brexit, are you saying britain will never trade with anyone? How did britain trade with anyone before the EU was created?
        Tomte 8y ago
        I was still thinking about Catalonia. But sure, they can and will negotiate trade deals. Ten years later they might have two or three, with not too important countries. The US, for example, won't feel a huge need to prioritize a trade deal with Catalonia "right now". That would be on the back burner, and somewhen much later it might be finished and ratified.
- InitialLastName 8y ago
  From a political science perspective, (and as we saw with the Spanish response to the independence election) Catalonia doesn't have a monopoly over the use of force in their borders. Somaliland appears to have that monopoly.

by 21 8y ago

dudul 8y ago

Can you elaborate a little what you mean by "doesn't act like a real country"? My understanding is that provinces in Spain actually enjoy quite a lot of autonomy in regards to how they organize their operations/policies. Catalonia promotes its own language in schools, they even have some form of foreign affairs with other governments. What do you think is missing? And just to be clear, I also thought the declaration of independence was really comical :)

vinceguidry 8y ago
My understanding is that it's a bit like Texas or California or New York dreaming that they could be their own separate countries. If you live in one of these places it's easy to put on rose colored glasses and dream. But are they really going to put up a border wall, close off economically, form their own military, et al, et al? Their prosperity is based in large part on integration into the union. They will always be dependent on it in some form, even if they achieved political independence. Unlike Somaliland, which really has no use for it's neighbor and the realities on the ground reflect that.
- _delirium 8y ago
  That's true, but in the modern era the Catalan form of independentism (like the Scottish and Flemish ones) is an aspiration to be an independent country still tightly integrated within the EU as the overarching supra-national framework, so there wouldn't really be a goal to put up border walls or be capable of militarily defending the border, any more than Luxembourg does either of those things. The hope was that as nations integrate closer into the EU, the EU picks up many of the traditional responsibilities of a nation (external border, customs, trade agreements, etc.), making it more viable for regions to detach from countries that themselves partly function as federations (like Spain, the UK, and Belgium) and just become direct members of the top-level federation. Now it's quite possible that political or procedural reasons (like the ease of vetoing new EU members) mean this is unlikely to happen, but it's generally the envisioned route that independence supporters in these regions have.
  - Uberphallus 8y ago
    > but in the modern era the Catalan form of independentism [...] is an aspiration to be an independent country still tightly integrated within the EU Yes, but that's why it's dreaming: if Catalonia unilaterally left Spain, Spain would veto the Catalan entry in the EU (and not only Spain, any country with separatism, e.g. France/Corsica). That would force them indeed to put up walls and borders, develop a military, extend all the missing police force, and get systematically the short end of the stick in any trade deal because of its very little leverage. An unilateral leave of Catalonia from Spain is not far from Brexit in shortsightedness.
    - dmurray 8y ago
      > Yes, but that's why it's dreaming: if Catalonia unilaterally left Spain, Spain would veto the Catalan entry in the EU (and not only Spain, any country with separatism, e.g. France/Corsica). Only out of spite, though. If Catalonia were to be independent, Spain would gain from it joining the EU. Their commitment to keeping them out of the EU is there to deter them from leaving Spain in the first place, which likely would be bad for Spain. Spain is working much harder to make a believable deterrent than other "countries with separatism". You don't have France, Denmark or the UK refusing to recognize Kosovo, for example.
      - dotemacs 8y ago
        > You don't have France, Denmark or the UK refusing to recognize Kosovo, for example. Of course not. They, the UK in particular, were essential in creating it and actively encouraged it from ceding from Serbia. It's their baby. Why would they not recognise it? There is at least 9 Albanian children from Kosovo and Metohija, southern Serbian province, who have been named "Tonyblair" (no, not misspell). In the honour of Tony Blair. See: http://albanmuja.blogspot.com/2011/11/tonys.html http://albanmuja.blogspot.com/2011/11/tonys.html
        dmurray 8y ago
        Spain were also involved, at least in the bombing campaign against Serbia. It's pretty easy for a government to take one point of view when creating a problem and the other when addressing it. You might as well ask why the US would try to undermine the Taliban.
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  As a determined supporter of Scottish independence, I obviously disagree with that assessment :) Independence doesn’t mean that countries become completely detached from their neighbours. In Catalonia for example the assumption is that both the new country and the remainder of Spain would remain members of the EU and the associated intergovernmental machinery that brings. That means no border guards or economic walls! In the Scottish case, for example, it’s worth bearing in mind that as a country it already has an entirely separate government, legal system, healthcare and education systems. Is it such a big leap to imagine that a separate foreign policy and military organisation might be feasible?
  - Tomte 8y ago
    > In Catalonia for example the assumption is that both the new country and the remainder of Spain would remain members of the EU and the associated intergovernmental machinery that brings. That is simply impossible, unless Spain agrees. That means Catalonia would need goodwill from the Spaniards, and that means the separation would have to be amicable. I don't see the Catalans going that route. No matter that Spain may be "more at fault" (if you lean towards the Catalan side), unless they can defuse the situation completely, they are dreaming a very, very dangerous dream. I suppose they wouldn't starve, at least. The other European countries (at some point even including Spain) would send food aid. :-) The Scottish referendum was completely different: Westminster had already agreed to accept the separation. Without enthusiasm, but still.
    - vidarh 8y ago
      > That is simply impossible, unless Spain agrees. So it's not impossible. > I don't see the Catalans going that route. It may not start down that route, but realistically there is no other route. It may be that it takes some unrest to force everyone to take negotiations seriously, but there's no realistic prospect of Catalonia forcing independence via civil war or revolution.
      - Tomte 8y ago
        In the same sense as it's not impossible that I'm a green-blooded alien that's currently employed in taking over earth, sure.
- paidleaf 8y ago
  > But are they really going to put up a border wall, close off economically, form their own military, et al, et al? Those states already have borders and militaries. Also, why does independence mean "closing off economically"? > Their prosperity is based in large part on integration into the union. Canada's prosperity is more dependent on the US than california, ny or texas is. Are you saying canada is not a country? Also, you are forgetting that texas used to be a country and tried to become a country during the civil war. American states are structured as independent nations. They have their borders, flags, histories. They have their own executive ( governor ), legislative branch, militaries ( national guards/etc ), etc. Perhaps a better argument would be canada's first "nations" or our native american "nations" dreaming of independence.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    > why does independence mean "closing off economically" Because they'd be sitting right in between EU countries. So hard borders all around, no trade deals in place, nothing. It would be like a no-deal Brexit, but infinitely worse.
    - paidleaf 8y ago
      > Because they'd be sitting right in between EU countries EU? The guy was talking about texas, california and ny. > So hard borders all around, no trade deals in place, nothing. So they'll just negotiate trade deals? > It would be like a no-deal Brexit, but infinitely worse. You gave no reason why it would be worse. Also, post brexit, are you saying britain will never trade with anyone? How did britain trade with anyone before the EU was created?
      - Tomte 8y ago
        I was still thinking about Catalonia. But sure, they can and will negotiate trade deals. Ten years later they might have two or three, with not too important countries. The US, for example, won't feel a huge need to prioritize a trade deal with Catalonia "right now". That would be on the back burner, and somewhen much later it might be finished and ratified.
InitialLastName 8y ago
From a political science perspective, (and as we saw with the Spanish response to the independence election) Catalonia doesn't have a monopoly over the use of force in their borders. Somaliland appears to have that monopoly.