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Identity is not a concept the universe recognizes. The basic building blocks of the universe provably have no identity; all atoms composed the same are intercha

by Felz 8y ago

Identity is not a concept the universe recognizes. The basic building blocks of the universe provably have no identity; all atoms composed the same are interchangeable. Of course a philosopher would never realize that, because they'd never bother looking hard enough to get to quantum mechanics. There is no Ship of Theseusness that gets transferred at any point. You just built a leaky abstraction over how things really work, and surprise: it's leaky.

andrepd 8y ago
If we reduced the world to only fundamental concepts and discarded everything else... Well basic physics would survive, and not much else. Nonetheless there is knowledge beyond fundamental physics, meaningful knowledge.
c3534l 8y ago
I'm afraid you're actually engaging in the Ship of Theseus problem there. Your conclusion about why the Ship of Theseus is not actually a paradox is the very point of the parable. Another person might suggest that objects really are things. In fact, I would. If you replaced every atom in my body with a different atom of the same type, would I still be me? I would argue yes, that you've not made an identical copy of me. You're clearly taking a philosophical position on the meaning of the parable, yet pretending you're not doing philosophy in the process. It seems that's what a lot of people in this thread chain are doing, assuming their interpretation is the correct one and that philosophy is therefor BS to even ask the question. Everyone does philosophy all the time, but some people do it completely uninformed of the thousands of years of debate we've had on it.
- Felz 8y ago
  > If you replaced every atom in my body with a different atom of the same type, would I still be me? I would argue yes, that you've not made an identical copy of me. I don't agree with everything Yudkowsky says, but he makes my point here: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Bp8vnEciPA5TXSy6f/can-you-prove-two-particles-are-identical https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Bp8vnEciPA5TXSy6f/can-you-pr... There is no "if you replaced every atom in your body". That's not even describable with what we know of the universe's fundamentals. It's an abstraction we layer on top so we can make sense of it. There is no useful debate about whether it's true or not, because it's just something we choose. I'm not taking a position. I'm dissolving the question. I don't care if that's secretly "doing philosophy" or not. If it upsets you that I think there's no value in "thousands of years of debate" and things that most people would consider philosophy, prove me wrong.
  - goatlover 8y ago
    It's not like you're the first person to try and dissolve a long standing philosophical debate before. It just becomes part of the ongoing debate, because low and behold, not everyone is going to magically agree that you've dissolved the debate.

by Felz 8y ago

andrepd 8y ago

If we reduced the world to only fundamental concepts and discarded everything else... Well basic physics would survive, and not much else. Nonetheless there is knowledge beyond fundamental physics, meaningful knowledge.

c3534l 8y ago

I'm afraid you're actually engaging in the Ship of Theseus problem there. Your conclusion about why the Ship of Theseus is not actually a paradox is the very point of the parable. Another person might suggest that objects really are things. In fact, I would. If you replaced every atom in my body with a different atom of the same type, would I still be me? I would argue yes, that you've not made an identical copy of me. You're clearly taking a philosophical position on the meaning of the parable, yet pretending you're not doing philosophy in the process. It seems that's what a lot of people in this thread chain are doing, assuming their interpretation is the correct one and that philosophy is therefor BS to even ask the question. Everyone does philosophy all the time, but some people do it completely uninformed of the thousands of years of debate we've had on it.

Felz 8y ago
> If you replaced every atom in my body with a different atom of the same type, would I still be me? I would argue yes, that you've not made an identical copy of me. I don't agree with everything Yudkowsky says, but he makes my point here: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Bp8vnEciPA5TXSy6f/can-you-prove-two-particles-are-identical https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Bp8vnEciPA5TXSy6f/can-you-pr... There is no "if you replaced every atom in your body". That's not even describable with what we know of the universe's fundamentals. It's an abstraction we layer on top so we can make sense of it. There is no useful debate about whether it's true or not, because it's just something we choose. I'm not taking a position. I'm dissolving the question. I don't care if that's secretly "doing philosophy" or not. If it upsets you that I think there's no value in "thousands of years of debate" and things that most people would consider philosophy, prove me wrong.
- goatlover 8y ago
  It's not like you're the first person to try and dissolve a long standing philosophical debate before. It just becomes part of the ongoing debate, because low and behold, not everyone is going to magically agree that you've dissolved the debate.