7 ms·

My mother teaches autistic children and I think this woman must have an incredibly mild version. My mother’s students can barely take care of themselves and to

My mother teaches autistic children and I think this woman must have an incredibly mild version. My mother’s students can barely take care of themselves and touching someone is largely out of the question. I’d love to see her face when I mentioned I read an article about a woman with autism being a stripper. And yes I know there is a spectrum of autism from severe to not as severe, but when someone is as high functioning as this does the word have any meaning anymore?

46Bit 8y ago
> incredibly mild version There are large variations in what different autistic people are capable of, and (e.g.) whether they have intellectual disabilities. The writer might be considered high-functioning by a professional, but it has clearly impacted their life. To call their autism "incredibly mild" sounds dismissive of their experiences. Full disclosure: I'm "high-functioning" autistic too and can associate so much with their account. > And yes I know there is a spectrum of autism from severe to not as severe, but when someone is as high functioning as this does the word have any meaning anymore? I wanted to reply to this edit. In this post is someone who struggled to function at a dinner with potential friends, and reverted to clients at a strip club because at least that can be rehearsed. I refuse to judge the author; I think they've done amazingly. But having this label may empower them and help them be more in control of their life. The word has meaning.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  > But having this label may empower them and help them be more in control of their life. The word has meaning. It certainly does, and although the wait lists are long here in NL, I can still recommend people who suspect they have autism to investigate it (via professionals). Its been roughly a 10 months ago since I had my diagnosis, and I learned so much ever since: * My partner (then undiagnosed) went to a group of partners of ASDers to learn more about how I experienced the world. This led her to believe she also has ASD (recently confirmed). * I learned all the things related to what makes ASD different from NTs such as Theory of Mind. * I met fellow ASDers, learned their background, their strong and weak traits, and was able to observe them as well. * I did a mindfulness course specifically for people with autism. * We, a couple both diagnosed with autism, get help to deal with our baby so she can grow up healthy in this NT world with two autistic parents (I'm terrible at reading her body language...) * There's more in development but I'll keep my mouth shut until it's been done & succeeded. All of the above thanks to the fantastic healthcare system in The Netherlands. God, I love my country, I'm so blessed being born here. EDIT: A lot of women (like my partner) end up being undiagnosed. Women are trained into a certain role in society which isn't typically masculine-autistic. They're forced to learn to mimic, act, etc to fit the feminine role.
  - Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    Your last point is also true for ADHD, which expresses itself differently in men and women. My GF only got an official diagnosis at age 35, and she finally has some peace and stability in her head thanks to the medication she's now getting. She used to be labeled a difficult or naughty child growing up, and got into a lot of shit for it. At least her son was diagnosed a lot earlier, he's now getting medication and extra classes to catch up on about a year of falling behind at school.
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      ADHD and autism are very much related. A friend of mine who has ASD and ADHD diagnosis (and gets meds for her ADHD) told me there's talks in the field about combining the two. My GF has an ASD diagnosis, her sister ADHD, and her brother and mother lead a very secluded life and are in our opinion fit for an ASD diagnosis. It runs in the family, so to say. Her sister also gets checked for ASD however she's quite "different" from the other ones mentioned.
wasx 8y ago
Yeah autism occurs on a spectrum, from very low-functioning people who can barely verbalise or take care of themselves, to relatively high-functioning individuals who are capable of taking care of themselves, and given the right tools, even thrive.
amorphid 8y ago
Having a mild form can be even more difficult. You appear different enough that people can tell, but your similar enough to other people that people don't understand the difference between you not getting it and simply misbehaving. When someone who will never get why they're being disciplined for what to them is acting normally keeps getting repeatedly punished, it's usually going to go poorly.
- scardine 8y ago
  That. Your attempts at entertaining small talk often will be perceived as sassy, cynical or arrogant.
- rbanffy 8y ago
  > You appear different enough that people can tell, but your similar enough to other people And that does wonders for you when trying to be diagnosed and, if you are lucky, treated.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Treated? You should know that may sound very offensive (I assume it wasn't meant offensive though). Autism cannot be treated as it isn't a disease; it is a development disorder. You learn to live with it, and its part of how you are as a human being; you don't know different. You learn to live with it without a diagnosis as well, but a diagnosis plus various therapies can help you being more functional in life. That's different than being treated. Heck, people with ASD can have positive effects from their disorder just as well.
    - rbanffy 8y ago
      I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend. Many people believe ADHD is related to Autism and, while I never heard it of being cured, it can be managed/tuned with medication. Maybe autism can be managed in a similar way - and we just don't know how yet. BTW, I also don't think of ADHD and ASDs as diseases either. Like you said, it's more like the way we are wired. I am wired in a somewhat odd way, but I wouldn't trade my brain in for the standard model, even if it is inconvenient sometimes.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
I have two sons who both likely are ASD, though neither is formally diagnosed. They both have sensory issues. They are both control freaks about touching. But if it is done on their terms, they can be affectionate. Something you commonly see with impaired kids is that they are given far less control over their lives, far less choice, than "normal" kids. I did the opposite. I gave my kids more latitude, not less, to help them be comfortable. It shouldn't really come as any surprise that sensory issues plus other people not doing things on your terms typically results in an aversion to being touched at all. It isn't necessarily solely due to them being ASD per se.
poisonarena 8y ago
Yeah I remember babysitting an autistic child when I was younger who had 'severe' autism. had had to wear a small lock on his pajamas so that he would not open his diaper and smear feces on the walls. He spent most of my time babysitting with him with his face pressed up against the television. It seems like 'autism' is thrown around to lightly in my opinion, especially after working with someone who had such a severe form.
- sls 8y ago
  Do you think the word "cancer" is thrown around too lightly when people say that they had a melanoma removed?
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    Cancer is physical, autism is psychological. It's possible to diagnose somebody who does not have autism with autism. If somebody has a cancerous growth - which is what defines cancer, it is not possible to falsely diagnose them with cancer. If somebody had a benign growth removed and called it cancer, yes I would think it was being thrown around too lightly.
    - sls 8y ago
      I don't know why you point out that it's impossible to falsely diagnose cancer in a patient who has cancer. Surely you agree that it's also impossible to falsely diagnose autism in a person with autism? But perhaps your remark simply reflects a metaphor stretched too far. I realize that you are not the original commenter who alleged that the term "autism" was being thrown around too lightly, but you're happy to agree. Is the entire basis for your view that sometimes people are misdiagnosed? Or do you have a stronger claim in mind?
      - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        In my opinion, people are different. Attributing differences to disorders is not productive, and tends to lead to things such as medication and expensive treatment and therapy when such things are not only unnecessary but absurd and can even be harmful - especially in the longrun. It's reminiscent of various 'treatments' for homosexuality in the earlier years of psychology/psychiatry, which by the way does not mean the 19th century or whatever - this was normal practice as late as the 70s. Of course the fundamental issue is that the difference between disorder and being different is not well defined. I think a reasonable definition would be a disorder is something that's likely to cause an individual to harm themselves or others in a way completely outside of their control. Schizophrenia is a good example, as are the sort of autistic children you can find that have little to no ability to communicate and might see engaging in 'autistic flapping' in a corner. Imagine if we treated things like schizophrenia the same way we do autism. We better stick every single religious individual that claims to be able to communicate with or hear the voice of god on antipsychotics and scheduled 'treatment', as they're clearly on the scale. From a secular point of view, that's kind of an amusing idea but only as a form of schadenfreude - it's of course an idiotic idea and notion. They may have eccentric views or behaviors, but that is not schizophrenia. The definition of mental illness should not slide so far as to begin to encompass people that clearly are not ill by any meaningful definition of the word.
teddyc 8y ago
You don't know how well functioning these kids will be as adults. There are plenty of adults on the spectrum who seem rather high functioning now but can tell you stories similar to the ones you have heard about their own childhood.
dastbe 8y ago
Is it possible that you’re only seeing the kids with ASD severe enough to merit working with your mother?
koala_man 8y ago
I also used to think the typical autistic person was like the Rain Man. I've since come to realize that this is the extreme, and that people like in the article are the median. If that seems to make the term lose meaning, it's only because the original impression was warped.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
You have no idea how tired autistic adults get of being told we're not really autistic because "I saw Rain Man, you're nothing like that" or "I knew an autistic kid once and they couldn't dress themselves."
pimmen 8y ago
I have mild autism. I found a job I love where I just talk about math and computers all day. When I was a child, it was far worse though. Just like the author, all my life I’ve learned through experience how to talk and I started so many fights as s child and hurt so many friends with my words. The worst part is that those things still haunt me, I regularly lose sleep because I remember somethibg weird I did as a teenager, finally figure out why it was weird, and feel like shit. This fear of doing or saying something bad still keeps me away from social gatherings. When I feel like I don’t get any feedback on how I’m performing I often bail.
- tormeh 8y ago
  Socialising as performance. Ugh. Can relate.
FascinatedBox 8y ago
As someone on the higher-functioning end of the spectrum, I think it does. There are some traits I have and issues I contend with that I believe are based on Aspergers. Examples: Sensitivity to non-harmonic noises, especially loud ones. The tapping of a pen, the hum of someone standing around. I cannot stand being around crying children. The feeling isn't quite that of blood pressure rising. More, that it creates a bubbling discomfort that makes me feel as though I might speak out against my own will. I never do, but it feels that way. So I have to remove myself from the situation or do something to rectify it. A preference for non-verbal communication, well over that of my peers. A thumbs up. A nod. A wave instead of a "hey". I wave to greet people in case they don't hear me. I'm quiet because I don't like loud noises, and my own voice is near myself. No interest in forming social relationships outside of work. People can tell I'm not interested because I don't offer to do activities outside of work. So I learn about people meeting up after work through overhearing people in passing. I'm okay with this, but I realize that this is outside the norm. Many social activities are not of interest to me. I stave off loneliness through watching streams on Twitch and interacting primarily through Reddit. I get to control how much interaction I want. In both cases, I aim for smaller communities. I have a large body of programming work that I rarely discuss not out of humbleness or a desire to keep it to myself, but because the social rewards of sharing one's work don't carry the appeal to me that they do to others. At least, that's my assumption. I can't read people's faces. I stopped bothering to try some time ago. I intuit by relation. This scenario seems familiar. I bet this person will want to do that. Aha, I thought so. I've also learned to tune into people's word selection. Do their words suggest urgency toward a goal, or a more relaxed attitude toward it? How do they ask for my attention? How do they speak about what they're wanting to learn? Where is this? Over there. Other questions with more detail suggest the speaker has more time, and may allow for more detail. On the face of it, I can come across as relatively normal (though quiet). Deep down, the signs of Aspergers are still there, I've simply managed to find clever ways around them.
cncrnd 8y ago
I believe that this 'spectrum' definition has diluted the meaning of other conditions as well, with ADHD/ADD being one example. Pretty sure anyone can get diagnosed for ADHD these days.
jlebrech 8y ago
I feel like sometimes "normal" people are on the spectrum, being 100% pragmatic i find their behavior quite odd.
emodendroket 8y ago
> And yes I know there is a spectrum of autism from severe to not as severe, but when someone is as high functioning as this does the word have any meaning anymore? I should think so given the challenges the article describes. You can't really believe that only people who act like the Rain Man are autistic. I suppose this kind of misunderstanding is one thing that makes the elimination of the name "Asperger's" in favor of "ASD" a problem.

46Bit 8y ago

> incredibly mild version There are large variations in what different autistic people are capable of, and (e.g.) whether they have intellectual disabilities. The writer might be considered high-functioning by a professional, but it has clearly impacted their life. To call their autism "incredibly mild" sounds dismissive of their experiences. Full disclosure: I'm "high-functioning" autistic too and can associate so much with their account. > And yes I know there is a spectrum of autism from severe to not as severe, but when someone is as high functioning as this does the word have any meaning anymore? I wanted to reply to this edit. In this post is someone who struggled to function at a dinner with potential friends, and reverted to clients at a strip club because at least that can be rehearsed. I refuse to judge the author; I think they've done amazingly. But having this label may empower them and help them be more in control of their life. The word has meaning.

Fnoord 8y ago
> But having this label may empower them and help them be more in control of their life. The word has meaning. It certainly does, and although the wait lists are long here in NL, I can still recommend people who suspect they have autism to investigate it (via professionals). Its been roughly a 10 months ago since I had my diagnosis, and I learned so much ever since: * My partner (then undiagnosed) went to a group of partners of ASDers to learn more about how I experienced the world. This led her to believe she also has ASD (recently confirmed). * I learned all the things related to what makes ASD different from NTs such as Theory of Mind. * I met fellow ASDers, learned their background, their strong and weak traits, and was able to observe them as well. * I did a mindfulness course specifically for people with autism. * We, a couple both diagnosed with autism, get help to deal with our baby so she can grow up healthy in this NT world with two autistic parents (I'm terrible at reading her body language...) * There's more in development but I'll keep my mouth shut until it's been done & succeeded. All of the above thanks to the fantastic healthcare system in The Netherlands. God, I love my country, I'm so blessed being born here. EDIT: A lot of women (like my partner) end up being undiagnosed. Women are trained into a certain role in society which isn't typically masculine-autistic. They're forced to learn to mimic, act, etc to fit the feminine role.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  Your last point is also true for ADHD, which expresses itself differently in men and women. My GF only got an official diagnosis at age 35, and she finally has some peace and stability in her head thanks to the medication she's now getting. She used to be labeled a difficult or naughty child growing up, and got into a lot of shit for it. At least her son was diagnosed a lot earlier, he's now getting medication and extra classes to catch up on about a year of falling behind at school.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    ADHD and autism are very much related. A friend of mine who has ASD and ADHD diagnosis (and gets meds for her ADHD) told me there's talks in the field about combining the two. My GF has an ASD diagnosis, her sister ADHD, and her brother and mother lead a very secluded life and are in our opinion fit for an ASD diagnosis. It runs in the family, so to say. Her sister also gets checked for ASD however she's quite "different" from the other ones mentioned.

wasx 8y ago

Yeah autism occurs on a spectrum, from very low-functioning people who can barely verbalise or take care of themselves, to relatively high-functioning individuals who are capable of taking care of themselves, and given the right tools, even thrive.

amorphid 8y ago

Having a mild form can be even more difficult. You appear different enough that people can tell, but your similar enough to other people that people don't understand the difference between you not getting it and simply misbehaving. When someone who will never get why they're being disciplined for what to them is acting normally keeps getting repeatedly punished, it's usually going to go poorly.

scardine 8y ago
That. Your attempts at entertaining small talk often will be perceived as sassy, cynical or arrogant.
rbanffy 8y ago
> You appear different enough that people can tell, but your similar enough to other people And that does wonders for you when trying to be diagnosed and, if you are lucky, treated.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Treated? You should know that may sound very offensive (I assume it wasn't meant offensive though). Autism cannot be treated as it isn't a disease; it is a development disorder. You learn to live with it, and its part of how you are as a human being; you don't know different. You learn to live with it without a diagnosis as well, but a diagnosis plus various therapies can help you being more functional in life. That's different than being treated. Heck, people with ASD can have positive effects from their disorder just as well.
  - rbanffy 8y ago
    I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend. Many people believe ADHD is related to Autism and, while I never heard it of being cured, it can be managed/tuned with medication. Maybe autism can be managed in a similar way - and we just don't know how yet. BTW, I also don't think of ADHD and ASDs as diseases either. Like you said, it's more like the way we are wired. I am wired in a somewhat odd way, but I wouldn't trade my brain in for the standard model, even if it is inconvenient sometimes.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I have two sons who both likely are ASD, though neither is formally diagnosed. They both have sensory issues. They are both control freaks about touching. But if it is done on their terms, they can be affectionate. Something you commonly see with impaired kids is that they are given far less control over their lives, far less choice, than "normal" kids. I did the opposite. I gave my kids more latitude, not less, to help them be comfortable. It shouldn't really come as any surprise that sensory issues plus other people not doing things on your terms typically results in an aversion to being touched at all. It isn't necessarily solely due to them being ASD per se.

poisonarena 8y ago

Yeah I remember babysitting an autistic child when I was younger who had 'severe' autism. had had to wear a small lock on his pajamas so that he would not open his diaper and smear feces on the walls. He spent most of my time babysitting with him with his face pressed up against the television. It seems like 'autism' is thrown around to lightly in my opinion, especially after working with someone who had such a severe form.

sls 8y ago
Do you think the word "cancer" is thrown around too lightly when people say that they had a melanoma removed?
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  Cancer is physical, autism is psychological. It's possible to diagnose somebody who does not have autism with autism. If somebody has a cancerous growth - which is what defines cancer, it is not possible to falsely diagnose them with cancer. If somebody had a benign growth removed and called it cancer, yes I would think it was being thrown around too lightly.
  - sls 8y ago
    I don't know why you point out that it's impossible to falsely diagnose cancer in a patient who has cancer. Surely you agree that it's also impossible to falsely diagnose autism in a person with autism? But perhaps your remark simply reflects a metaphor stretched too far. I realize that you are not the original commenter who alleged that the term "autism" was being thrown around too lightly, but you're happy to agree. Is the entire basis for your view that sometimes people are misdiagnosed? Or do you have a stronger claim in mind?
    - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
      In my opinion, people are different. Attributing differences to disorders is not productive, and tends to lead to things such as medication and expensive treatment and therapy when such things are not only unnecessary but absurd and can even be harmful - especially in the longrun. It's reminiscent of various 'treatments' for homosexuality in the earlier years of psychology/psychiatry, which by the way does not mean the 19th century or whatever - this was normal practice as late as the 70s. Of course the fundamental issue is that the difference between disorder and being different is not well defined. I think a reasonable definition would be a disorder is something that's likely to cause an individual to harm themselves or others in a way completely outside of their control. Schizophrenia is a good example, as are the sort of autistic children you can find that have little to no ability to communicate and might see engaging in 'autistic flapping' in a corner. Imagine if we treated things like schizophrenia the same way we do autism. We better stick every single religious individual that claims to be able to communicate with or hear the voice of god on antipsychotics and scheduled 'treatment', as they're clearly on the scale. From a secular point of view, that's kind of an amusing idea but only as a form of schadenfreude - it's of course an idiotic idea and notion. They may have eccentric views or behaviors, but that is not schizophrenia. The definition of mental illness should not slide so far as to begin to encompass people that clearly are not ill by any meaningful definition of the word.

teddyc 8y ago

You don't know how well functioning these kids will be as adults. There are plenty of adults on the spectrum who seem rather high functioning now but can tell you stories similar to the ones you have heard about their own childhood.

dastbe 8y ago

Is it possible that you’re only seeing the kids with ASD severe enough to merit working with your mother?

koala_man 8y ago

I also used to think the typical autistic person was like the Rain Man. I've since come to realize that this is the extreme, and that people like in the article are the median. If that seems to make the term lose meaning, it's only because the original impression was warped.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

You have no idea how tired autistic adults get of being told we're not really autistic because "I saw Rain Man, you're nothing like that" or "I knew an autistic kid once and they couldn't dress themselves."

pimmen 8y ago

I have mild autism. I found a job I love where I just talk about math and computers all day. When I was a child, it was far worse though. Just like the author, all my life I’ve learned through experience how to talk and I started so many fights as s child and hurt so many friends with my words. The worst part is that those things still haunt me, I regularly lose sleep because I remember somethibg weird I did as a teenager, finally figure out why it was weird, and feel like shit. This fear of doing or saying something bad still keeps me away from social gatherings. When I feel like I don’t get any feedback on how I’m performing I often bail.

tormeh 8y ago
Socialising as performance. Ugh. Can relate.

FascinatedBox 8y ago

As someone on the higher-functioning end of the spectrum, I think it does. There are some traits I have and issues I contend with that I believe are based on Aspergers. Examples: Sensitivity to non-harmonic noises, especially loud ones. The tapping of a pen, the hum of someone standing around. I cannot stand being around crying children. The feeling isn't quite that of blood pressure rising. More, that it creates a bubbling discomfort that makes me feel as though I might speak out against my own will. I never do, but it feels that way. So I have to remove myself from the situation or do something to rectify it. A preference for non-verbal communication, well over that of my peers. A thumbs up. A nod. A wave instead of a "hey". I wave to greet people in case they don't hear me. I'm quiet because I don't like loud noises, and my own voice is near myself. No interest in forming social relationships outside of work. People can tell I'm not interested because I don't offer to do activities outside of work. So I learn about people meeting up after work through overhearing people in passing. I'm okay with this, but I realize that this is outside the norm. Many social activities are not of interest to me. I stave off loneliness through watching streams on Twitch and interacting primarily through Reddit. I get to control how much interaction I want. In both cases, I aim for smaller communities. I have a large body of programming work that I rarely discuss not out of humbleness or a desire to keep it to myself, but because the social rewards of sharing one's work don't carry the appeal to me that they do to others. At least, that's my assumption. I can't read people's faces. I stopped bothering to try some time ago. I intuit by relation. This scenario seems familiar. I bet this person will want to do that. Aha, I thought so. I've also learned to tune into people's word selection. Do their words suggest urgency toward a goal, or a more relaxed attitude toward it? How do they ask for my attention? How do they speak about what they're wanting to learn? Where is this? Over there. Other questions with more detail suggest the speaker has more time, and may allow for more detail. On the face of it, I can come across as relatively normal (though quiet). Deep down, the signs of Aspergers are still there, I've simply managed to find clever ways around them.

cncrnd 8y ago

I believe that this 'spectrum' definition has diluted the meaning of other conditions as well, with ADHD/ADD being one example. Pretty sure anyone can get diagnosed for ADHD these days.

jlebrech 8y ago

I feel like sometimes "normal" people are on the spectrum, being 100% pragmatic i find their behavior quite odd.

emodendroket 8y ago

> And yes I know there is a spectrum of autism from severe to not as severe, but when someone is as high functioning as this does the word have any meaning anymore? I should think so given the challenges the article describes. You can't really believe that only people who act like the Rain Man are autistic. I suppose this kind of misunderstanding is one thing that makes the elimination of the name "Asperger's" in favor of "ASD" a problem.