5 ms·

At work you will normally have an internet connection, so what are effectively useless "elite code" algorithm puzzles are A) easily looked up, and B) not most o

by zunzun 8y ago

At work you will normally have an internet connection, so what are effectively useless "elite code" algorithm puzzles are A) easily looked up, and B) not most of what the work is. Those are not realistic problems, business have better things to do than waste time on those sort of things. Here is a realistic problem that might be encountered at work: "We need output X under these circumstances, but instead got output Y. Track down the problem and estimate time to correct". Another might be, "We have a new business requirement, how long will it take to design and code it - think about it and let me know tomorrow." Businesses are not arcane IQ test puzzles like the sites you are looking at.

jokh 8y ago
That is true, but in order to get the jobs you described that pay reasonably well you still need to solve algorithmic problems on Leetcode or CTCI. And sometimes knowing different data structures and algorithms do come in handy, so some problems on Leetcode can be considered realistic.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  No, you can get there by finding jobs where the interviewers/hiring managers aren't using Leetcode as their filter. (They do exist, even if they're not as common as they should be.)
  - jokh 8y ago
    That's why I said "pay reasonably well". It seems to me that most places that don't interview and filter candidates by asking algorithmic problems don't pay as well as those that do. That's just been my experience as a student that's interviewed for internships and is going to start interviewing for new grad positions in the fall. Also > (They do exist, even if they're not as common as they should be.) I'm curious why you think interviews _should_ be non-algorithmic. How do you propose interviews be done? How else are you supposed to find if someone can employ critical thinking + has the necessary programming skills? And yes, most interview questions _are_ original and not straight from Leetcode so they do demonstrate critical thinking + programming skills.
    - trcollinson 8y ago
      You’re thinking rather short sided here. There are a lot of ways to find out if someone can think critically and also has the appropriate level of skill at programming. I prefer to give them a set of much more real world type scenarios to see how they will handle things. Often I do this in a paired programming scenario. We both sit down. I drive they navigate and we spend 20 - 30 minutes trying to build something. The something is never anything that is going to go into production. Just code that is real and useful and can show me how they think through a problem and whether they can catch mistakes in code as they happen in real time. Lately I’ve been a fan of making a shopping cart (since the software I build doesn’t have a shopping cart). I keep it very short. I try to make it low stress. I try to make it fun and funny. Why? I really want to know if the candidate can work with me and how they will work. I don’t care one bit whether they can remember the big O notation of a red-black tree search or whether they know how to reimplement a complex datatype. I care how they will work with me in my environment. You might say “you’re method is just too simplistic. People can game it and get through.” It’s been accused of that before. And frankly, I can memorize algorithms and game that interview. Try gaming me while we pair on some code and I try to toss in a few roadblocks. Try to game me as I try to see how you will react as we work together. It’s hard, and my methods have been quite successful for me. As for the pay, I don’t pay people what Amazon, Google, and Facebook pay. But I pay very well and people stick with me so it seems to work out.
      - AstralStorm 8y ago
        The other good test is to toss some intentionally cleverly buggy or incomplete piece of code to analyze and debug, since a third of the job is debugging. And by bug I do not mean super hidden tricky language feature you get to look up on language standard to not misuse.
    - toolz 8y ago
      Just my own little anecdote, but I was able to get into upper middle class after 4 years and no degree. I've never completely passed an algorithms interview either - most of my jobs haven't had algorithm filters. I'm now doing functional programming in a cool language for a living. Most people I meet haven't had my path to success, but it is possible. My gut feeling is that I'm a small statistic because people give up quite easily when they think their goals are unattainable. My first programming position took me 15 interviews to land a job!
LorenPechtel 8y ago
Estimate time to correct?? Most of the time that's very low, the hard part is figuring out why you get Y instead of X.

by zunzun 8y ago

jokh 8y ago

That is true, but in order to get the jobs you described that pay reasonably well you still need to solve algorithmic problems on Leetcode or CTCI. And sometimes knowing different data structures and algorithms do come in handy, so some problems on Leetcode can be considered realistic.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
No, you can get there by finding jobs where the interviewers/hiring managers aren't using Leetcode as their filter. (They do exist, even if they're not as common as they should be.)
- jokh 8y ago
  That's why I said "pay reasonably well". It seems to me that most places that don't interview and filter candidates by asking algorithmic problems don't pay as well as those that do. That's just been my experience as a student that's interviewed for internships and is going to start interviewing for new grad positions in the fall. Also > (They do exist, even if they're not as common as they should be.) I'm curious why you think interviews _should_ be non-algorithmic. How do you propose interviews be done? How else are you supposed to find if someone can employ critical thinking + has the necessary programming skills? And yes, most interview questions _are_ original and not straight from Leetcode so they do demonstrate critical thinking + programming skills.
  - trcollinson 8y ago
    You’re thinking rather short sided here. There are a lot of ways to find out if someone can think critically and also has the appropriate level of skill at programming. I prefer to give them a set of much more real world type scenarios to see how they will handle things. Often I do this in a paired programming scenario. We both sit down. I drive they navigate and we spend 20 - 30 minutes trying to build something. The something is never anything that is going to go into production. Just code that is real and useful and can show me how they think through a problem and whether they can catch mistakes in code as they happen in real time. Lately I’ve been a fan of making a shopping cart (since the software I build doesn’t have a shopping cart). I keep it very short. I try to make it low stress. I try to make it fun and funny. Why? I really want to know if the candidate can work with me and how they will work. I don’t care one bit whether they can remember the big O notation of a red-black tree search or whether they know how to reimplement a complex datatype. I care how they will work with me in my environment. You might say “you’re method is just too simplistic. People can game it and get through.” It’s been accused of that before. And frankly, I can memorize algorithms and game that interview. Try gaming me while we pair on some code and I try to toss in a few roadblocks. Try to game me as I try to see how you will react as we work together. It’s hard, and my methods have been quite successful for me. As for the pay, I don’t pay people what Amazon, Google, and Facebook pay. But I pay very well and people stick with me so it seems to work out.
    - AstralStorm 8y ago
      The other good test is to toss some intentionally cleverly buggy or incomplete piece of code to analyze and debug, since a third of the job is debugging. And by bug I do not mean super hidden tricky language feature you get to look up on language standard to not misuse.
  - toolz 8y ago
    Just my own little anecdote, but I was able to get into upper middle class after 4 years and no degree. I've never completely passed an algorithms interview either - most of my jobs haven't had algorithm filters. I'm now doing functional programming in a cool language for a living. Most people I meet haven't had my path to success, but it is possible. My gut feeling is that I'm a small statistic because people give up quite easily when they think their goals are unattainable. My first programming position took me 15 interviews to land a job!

LorenPechtel 8y ago

Estimate time to correct?? Most of the time that's very low, the hard part is figuring out why you get Y instead of X.