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I've sometimes thought that it might be nice in an abstract sense to have kids. I'm sure there are some nice moments. But in practice whenever I see my friend

I've sometimes thought that it might be nice in an abstract sense to have kids. I'm sure there are some nice moments. But in practice whenever I see my friends with kids, they look so beleaguered and complain about never having time. I just think: Who needs it? I think typical people have a real blind spot to the incredible personal costs to having kids. Something about it makes them forget about or discount the bad times and keeps them from dispassionately weighing the pros and cons of having kids. Many (for whatever reason) will simply not realize there is a choice at all. Having kids is such a hassle, that to me it's no wonder that people are opting out once effective birth control came onto the scene. Edit: @codersbrew (to whom I can't reply because your comment is dead) I don't understand why you think my opinions are short-sighted; I actually think they're the opposite. Also, people without kids have to be able to form opinions about having kids, otherwise how could anyone make an informed choice about it? And if it's an actual, real, choice, people can make either decision. I'm not sure if my opinion is correct either, but it's all I got.

wetpaws 8y ago
I want to have kids, but human females are so unreliable and dangerous that using them for procreation is a borderline suicide. I will wait untill synthetic womb or widespread surrogacy would be a thing.
codersbrew 8y ago
This seems short sighted, and without you having a kid not sure your opinion is correct.
kelnos 8y ago
From what I can tell, people's desire to have kids is like how many react to religion: it's beaten into our brains from a very young age that it's the right thing to do, the only true path through adulthood and life, "real men" sire children and "real women" bear them. Pressure throughout adult life continues to reinforce it: parents wanting grandchildren (and using guilt in order to persuade), parent friends wanting you to "join their club", others playing the fear card and asking who will take care of you when you're old. Until recently, it's been taboo to talk about reproductive desires (or the lack thereof), the very real (often permanent) toll pregnancy takes on women, and the personal, career, and financial sacrifices parents must make to raise children responsibly. (And there's still a persistent stigma around discussing the negatives of child-rearing.) Many parents will even get aggressively defensive if you express a desire not to have your own kids, as if your decision has some negative effect on them. That kind of conditioning is hard to shake off, and many people don't even seriously realize (outside of the abstract) that not having a kid is even an option.
- Simon_says 8y ago
  > Many parents will even get aggressively defensive ... Good lord, yes they will. The ego defense mechanisms are so strong. It's right up there with religion and politics in the "things not to discuss" category. I wouldn't even be brave enough to post this tied to my real name.
- programmarchy 8y ago
  You do realize having kids is a biological necessity to continue life, yes? There would be no careers and financials to worry about if people didn’t exist. And there’s no reason to put those things on a pedestal, because they won’t matter once you’re dead. Choosing not to have kids is effectively genetic suicide. Your DNA will be a dead end on the evolutionary scale. For someone like me who enjoys life, seems odd that you wouldn’t want to create new life to pass down the experience to your children. That’s why it seems selfish and short sighted to me.
  - Simon_says 8y ago
    That's what you DNA "wants". Are you a slave to your DNA?
    - programmarchy 8y ago
      I think we are all slaves to DNA to the extent it determines our genetic makeup. In terms of having kids, like I said, I enjoy life and so I naturally want to pass down the experience of life to my children. There is a biological “want” built-in of course (oxytocin, etc.) but it’s something I consciously want, too. So, no I’m not completely enslaved by my DNA. I see myself in the context of my past and future, and I want to actively continue my chain of existence through my children. In comparison to that, extra free time and money seem trivial to me.
  - wetpaws 8y ago
    Sentient life is overrated.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
programmarchy 8y ago
Re: short sighted Have you contemplated what your life will be like when you’re fifty, sixty or seventy years old? I’m curious what you imagine it will be like without having children or grandchildren in your old age.
- Simon_says 8y ago
  Yea, thanks for asking. It's a serious topic, and I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about it. I honestly think that for me it'll be about the same, except I'll have more money and free time. But then again, I'm a person who does not really enjoy the company of children. Obviously other people feel differently and can make other choices for their own life, but I think this is the right choice for my life. I also think it's at least slightly unethical to bring a child into the world when there aren't two parents who are 100% on board with it. I definitely don't qualify.
  - programmarchy 8y ago
    Yeah, that makes sense. I’d agree it’s unethical to have kids if you didn’t want them. You have an obligation to provide for them once they’re born and it’s a lot of work. Neglecting that duty can cause lots of damage. It’s not for everyone, I suppose.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
" I just think: Who needs it?" Well, the human race? Or life as we know it? At least in some way :) ... Or depending on how you look at it!
- Simon_says 8y ago
  Ha! Yea! Humanity will do just fine without my kids, though.
edanm 8y ago
> I've sometimes thought that it might be nice in an abstract sense to have kids. I'm sure there are some nice moments. But in practice whenever I see my friends with kids, they look so beleaguered and complain about never having time. I just think: Who needs it? Well, not everyone necessarily needs or enjoys having kids. Then again, if you catch many startup founders while they're building a company, they'll similarly complain about never having free time and will look similarly beleaguered. That doesn't mean it's not worth starting a startup - just that there are downsides as well as upsides. And obviously it's not for everyone. You might only be seeing the downsides of people with kids, and missing the upsides; Partially because the upsides come at a later age (just from my read on things, not personal experience yet); Partially because a lot of the upsides are less visible in public (tender moments with loved ones tend to be in private).

wetpaws 8y ago

I want to have kids, but human females are so unreliable and dangerous that using them for procreation is a borderline suicide. I will wait untill synthetic womb or widespread surrogacy would be a thing.

codersbrew 8y ago

This seems short sighted, and without you having a kid not sure your opinion is correct.

kelnos 8y ago

From what I can tell, people's desire to have kids is like how many react to religion: it's beaten into our brains from a very young age that it's the right thing to do, the only true path through adulthood and life, "real men" sire children and "real women" bear them. Pressure throughout adult life continues to reinforce it: parents wanting grandchildren (and using guilt in order to persuade), parent friends wanting you to "join their club", others playing the fear card and asking who will take care of you when you're old. Until recently, it's been taboo to talk about reproductive desires (or the lack thereof), the very real (often permanent) toll pregnancy takes on women, and the personal, career, and financial sacrifices parents must make to raise children responsibly. (And there's still a persistent stigma around discussing the negatives of child-rearing.) Many parents will even get aggressively defensive if you express a desire not to have your own kids, as if your decision has some negative effect on them. That kind of conditioning is hard to shake off, and many people don't even seriously realize (outside of the abstract) that not having a kid is even an option.

Simon_says 8y ago
> Many parents will even get aggressively defensive ... Good lord, yes they will. The ego defense mechanisms are so strong. It's right up there with religion and politics in the "things not to discuss" category. I wouldn't even be brave enough to post this tied to my real name.
programmarchy 8y ago
You do realize having kids is a biological necessity to continue life, yes? There would be no careers and financials to worry about if people didn’t exist. And there’s no reason to put those things on a pedestal, because they won’t matter once you’re dead. Choosing not to have kids is effectively genetic suicide. Your DNA will be a dead end on the evolutionary scale. For someone like me who enjoys life, seems odd that you wouldn’t want to create new life to pass down the experience to your children. That’s why it seems selfish and short sighted to me.
- Simon_says 8y ago
  That's what you DNA "wants". Are you a slave to your DNA?
  - programmarchy 8y ago
    I think we are all slaves to DNA to the extent it determines our genetic makeup. In terms of having kids, like I said, I enjoy life and so I naturally want to pass down the experience of life to my children. There is a biological “want” built-in of course (oxytocin, etc.) but it’s something I consciously want, too. So, no I’m not completely enslaved by my DNA. I see myself in the context of my past and future, and I want to actively continue my chain of existence through my children. In comparison to that, extra free time and money seem trivial to me.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  Sentient life is overrated.
sonnyblarney 8y ago

programmarchy 8y ago

Re: short sighted Have you contemplated what your life will be like when you’re fifty, sixty or seventy years old? I’m curious what you imagine it will be like without having children or grandchildren in your old age.

Simon_says 8y ago
Yea, thanks for asking. It's a serious topic, and I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about it. I honestly think that for me it'll be about the same, except I'll have more money and free time. But then again, I'm a person who does not really enjoy the company of children. Obviously other people feel differently and can make other choices for their own life, but I think this is the right choice for my life. I also think it's at least slightly unethical to bring a child into the world when there aren't two parents who are 100% on board with it. I definitely don't qualify.
- programmarchy 8y ago
  Yeah, that makes sense. I’d agree it’s unethical to have kids if you didn’t want them. You have an obligation to provide for them once they’re born and it’s a lot of work. Neglecting that duty can cause lots of damage. It’s not for everyone, I suppose.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

" I just think: Who needs it?" Well, the human race? Or life as we know it? At least in some way :) ... Or depending on how you look at it!

Simon_says 8y ago
Ha! Yea! Humanity will do just fine without my kids, though.

edanm 8y ago

> I've sometimes thought that it might be nice in an abstract sense to have kids. I'm sure there are some nice moments. But in practice whenever I see my friends with kids, they look so beleaguered and complain about never having time. I just think: Who needs it? Well, not everyone necessarily needs or enjoys having kids. Then again, if you catch many startup founders while they're building a company, they'll similarly complain about never having free time and will look similarly beleaguered. That doesn't mean it's not worth starting a startup - just that there are downsides as well as upsides. And obviously it's not for everyone. You might only be seeing the downsides of people with kids, and missing the upsides; Partially because the upsides come at a later age (just from my read on things, not personal experience yet); Partially because a lot of the upsides are less visible in public (tender moments with loved ones tend to be in private).