4 ms·

Software jobs, mentioned regarding skills shortages, see abysmal wage growth

22 points by lkrubner 8y ago

lkrubner 8y ago
Excerpt: "Computer and mathematical science occupations, which require skills that are often mentioned in conversations about skills shortages, do have a relatively low unemployment rate, at 2.3 percent, but have seen abysmal wage growth, at less than 1 percent over the last year. No widespread shortage there."
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Yes refusal to share profits is one issue. Also, the "skills shortage" is partly due to companies absolute refusal to train on the job, combined with the explosion of tech stacks and tools that no one person can keep on top of. Even confining yourself to one niche is difficult these days as the niches grow to encompass data, browsers, admin, and ops. Many places sit on a job req for six months to find a unicorn, when they could have hired a smart person off the bat and let them study for a month.
  - Spartan-S63 8y ago
    It should be seen as appalling that the overall wage growth is less than inflation. Secondly, yes, the absolute refusal to train on the job is an indictment of how the industry views software engineers. Rather than being treated as creative professionals we're treated as assembly line code monkeys. It also leads us to working in low trust environments that like to make us think that we're highly trusted.
  - eberkund 8y ago
    I applied for a position about 4 months ago that required a relatively niche skillset. I felt the interview went well and I had at least some experience with all the technical stuff as well as some experience in a similar industry. Since interviewing with this company I have received requests from a half a dozen recruiters on LinkedIn who are recruiting for this same role. It is somewhat amusing that they are still searching after all this time.
  - wskinner 8y ago
    I'm not sure which companies you have worked at, but at every one of my jobs, at a mix of small-medium, medium-large, and really huge companies, learning on the job has been absolutely expected.
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      Learning on the job, yes. Getting hired without having used libX, or SQL statement Y, no. Even if it would take 30 minutes to learn. If you don't know it right this second, you're a moron or a fraud or both. Of course the natural state of a developer is constant learning, and forgetting, and checking, and remembering. So the trivia you know this second is largely irrelevant compared to problem-solving ability.
      - actsasbuffoon 8y ago
        This is one of my biggest frustrations with this industry. Interviews often feel like a perverse hazing ritual. Rather than seeing if you’re capable in general, we hit you with obscure trivia and worthless brainteasers to see if we can trip you up. I’ve watched great, experienced candidates be rejected by a co-worker because they couldn’t recall the arguments to some arcane function. The candidate had decades of experience, had worked on awesome stuff, had a good personality, and seemed super capable. It’s mindblowing that he was rejected because of something so worthless. My personal suspicion is that developers use this interview style as a way to boost their own ego. They feel better about themselves because they get to reject someone. This is purely anecdotal, but it’s usually the least capable developers I’ve worked with who are most eager to reject candidates for bullshit reasons. I’m fortunate to be really good at this kind of brain teaser interview. It’s helped me keep steady employment for a long time. That said, I don’t think makes me a better developer than someone who isn’t good at whiteboard coding. In production you can use Google, or an IDE, etc. I just don’t see the point of this style of interview.
        zzzcpan 8y ago
        The purpose of this kind of hazing ritual is to keep employees from changing employers. And since there is a monopsony power in the labor market, as article explains, those employers can keep this up for as long as they want, because it benefits them.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Why do you need a company to train you? I’ve never in 20 years jag on the job training. I’ve had to train myself through Pluralsight, YouTube, and Udemy videos and before that, with a subscription to Safari Books Online.
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      > let them study for a month I don't need training, but need to get hired and be allowed to learn on the job. Every position at a new company requires some training, it is almost never in a classroom setting.
lrem 8y ago
The link seems dead.
- jkingsbery 8y ago
  Yes, I get "We can't find the page you're looking for."
  - atomical 8y ago
    Remove %60 from the end.
- atomical 8y ago
  https://www.epi.org/blog/why-is-real-wage-growth-anemic-its-not-because-of-a-skills-shortage/ https://www.epi.org/blog/why-is-real-wage-growth-anemic-its-...
burntrelish1273 8y ago
Another consideration is that, long-term, the vast majority software jobs are likely to be as common as piano tuners and truck drivers: most automata will no doubt program themselves. If one wanted a secure "career," it would need to involve something that cannot scale well mechanically, co-op business involvement or an ability to create businesses that scale faster and better that nearly everyone else. Working an hourly job is slavery because it gives away one's time without recompension based on ownership. If someone doesn't own part of a business, they're merely an interchangeable, commodified servant.
akmarinov 8y ago
So go for legal is what I'm seeing here.

22 points by lkrubner 8y ago

Excerpt: "Computer and mathematical science occupations, which require skills that are often mentioned in conversations about skills shortages, do have a relatively low unemployment rate, at 2.3 percent, but have seen abysmal wage growth, at less than 1 percent over the last year. No widespread shortage there."

mixmastamyk 8y ago
Yes refusal to share profits is one issue. Also, the "skills shortage" is partly due to companies absolute refusal to train on the job, combined with the explosion of tech stacks and tools that no one person can keep on top of. Even confining yourself to one niche is difficult these days as the niches grow to encompass data, browsers, admin, and ops. Many places sit on a job req for six months to find a unicorn, when they could have hired a smart person off the bat and let them study for a month.
- Spartan-S63 8y ago
  It should be seen as appalling that the overall wage growth is less than inflation. Secondly, yes, the absolute refusal to train on the job is an indictment of how the industry views software engineers. Rather than being treated as creative professionals we're treated as assembly line code monkeys. It also leads us to working in low trust environments that like to make us think that we're highly trusted.
- eberkund 8y ago
  I applied for a position about 4 months ago that required a relatively niche skillset. I felt the interview went well and I had at least some experience with all the technical stuff as well as some experience in a similar industry. Since interviewing with this company I have received requests from a half a dozen recruiters on LinkedIn who are recruiting for this same role. It is somewhat amusing that they are still searching after all this time.
- wskinner 8y ago
  I'm not sure which companies you have worked at, but at every one of my jobs, at a mix of small-medium, medium-large, and really huge companies, learning on the job has been absolutely expected.
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    Learning on the job, yes. Getting hired without having used libX, or SQL statement Y, no. Even if it would take 30 minutes to learn. If you don't know it right this second, you're a moron or a fraud or both. Of course the natural state of a developer is constant learning, and forgetting, and checking, and remembering. So the trivia you know this second is largely irrelevant compared to problem-solving ability.
    - actsasbuffoon 8y ago
      This is one of my biggest frustrations with this industry. Interviews often feel like a perverse hazing ritual. Rather than seeing if you’re capable in general, we hit you with obscure trivia and worthless brainteasers to see if we can trip you up. I’ve watched great, experienced candidates be rejected by a co-worker because they couldn’t recall the arguments to some arcane function. The candidate had decades of experience, had worked on awesome stuff, had a good personality, and seemed super capable. It’s mindblowing that he was rejected because of something so worthless. My personal suspicion is that developers use this interview style as a way to boost their own ego. They feel better about themselves because they get to reject someone. This is purely anecdotal, but it’s usually the least capable developers I’ve worked with who are most eager to reject candidates for bullshit reasons. I’m fortunate to be really good at this kind of brain teaser interview. It’s helped me keep steady employment for a long time. That said, I don’t think makes me a better developer than someone who isn’t good at whiteboard coding. In production you can use Google, or an IDE, etc. I just don’t see the point of this style of interview.
      - zzzcpan 8y ago
        The purpose of this kind of hazing ritual is to keep employees from changing employers. And since there is a monopsony power in the labor market, as article explains, those employers can keep this up for as long as they want, because it benefits them.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Why do you need a company to train you? I’ve never in 20 years jag on the job training. I’ve had to train myself through Pluralsight, YouTube, and Udemy videos and before that, with a subscription to Safari Books Online.
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    > let them study for a month I don't need training, but need to get hired and be allowed to learn on the job. Every position at a new company requires some training, it is almost never in a classroom setting.

lrem 8y ago

The link seems dead.

jkingsbery 8y ago
Yes, I get "We can't find the page you're looking for."
- atomical 8y ago
  Remove %60 from the end.
atomical 8y ago
https://www.epi.org/blog/why-is-real-wage-growth-anemic-its-not-because-of-a-skills-shortage/ https://www.epi.org/blog/why-is-real-wage-growth-anemic-its-...

burntrelish1273 8y ago

Another consideration is that, long-term, the vast majority software jobs are likely to be as common as piano tuners and truck drivers: most automata will no doubt program themselves. If one wanted a secure "career," it would need to involve something that cannot scale well mechanically, co-op business involvement or an ability to create businesses that scale faster and better that nearly everyone else. Working an hourly job is slavery because it gives away one's time without recompension based on ownership. If someone doesn't own part of a business, they're merely an interchangeable, commodified servant.

akmarinov 8y ago

So go for legal is what I'm seeing here.