7 ms·

The brain may clean out Alzheimer’s plaques during sleep

163 points by mmazzarolo 8y ago

marvel_boy 8y ago
That explains the relation between Alzheimer and sleeping disorders.
- cpncrunch 8y ago
  No it doesnt. Read the article...causality is still unvlear.
  - notaharvardmba 8y ago
    Let's walk through this: People who are insomniacs are more likely to get less sleep. Could this same group also more likely to take anticholinergic sleep drugs (diphenhydramine)? There is a good link starting to be established between those drugs and dementias of all types. See https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2091745 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar..., or a bloggy summary if you're so inclined: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-d... The link is alarming enough you should think seriously before taking things like Zzzquil, Benadryl, Tylenol PM, etc. if you value your mental faculties.. But maybe the correlation in this article is at least partially explained by this other link. Personally the other theories (brain garbage collection during sleep, etc.) also make a lot of sense. And don't forget about the fungal theory: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24614898 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24614898
    - lucidone 8y ago
      I don't have much to add, but I know some of these drugs (ie DPH) are serious deliriants at high doses. It causing a loss of mental faculties with long term use would not surprise me.
    - toast0 8y ago
      Diphenhydramine is an anti-hystimine, that happens to make you drowsy (it's also a mild anti-depresent, which lead to somr targetted anti-depresents).
      - loa-in-backup 8y ago
        I guess it's a complex organic molecule with multiple interactions
  - guiambros 8y ago
    True. But it's also well known that Alzheimer's increases the buildup of amyloid-beta, which latches into hippocampus (memory) and thalamus (which controls sleep). With lack of sleep, your brain is unable to get rid of the excess of amyloid-beta. It's unknown if lack of sleep causes the onset of Alzheimer's, but the opposite is likely true: Alzheimer's patients don't sleep well. So once it starts to develop, it spirals down likely because of sleep deficiency, thus accelerating memory loss. Source: "Why We Sleep", by Matthew Walker. We had a few threads recently about the book here [1], [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17381235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17381235 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446932
melling 8y ago
So, if Bill Gates gets his early detection method soon, people can start to get some Ambien induced extra sleep and monitor their progress. https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-better-way-of-diagnosing-Alzheimers https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-better-way-of-diagnosing...
- aldoushuxley001 8y ago
  why Ambien induced?
  - bpchaps 8y ago
    Why is this downvoted?
- smnplk 8y ago
  Or you can just study more and produce more neurons.
  - danharaj 8y ago
    What?
  - dbasedweeb 8y ago
    I think you may be confusing synapses and neurons.
  - smnplk 8y ago
    Before downvoting me, please google your shit. Ok, I used the wrong term here, I meant synapses. If you engage regularly in mental stimulating activities, you increase the number of synapses and thus halting or postponing the development of Alzheimer disease. Google for Nun study.
- LeonB 8y ago
  The best way to improve sleep is CBTI, definitely not Ambien. Ambien doesn’t induce sleep. It induces a non waking state.
asdf1234tx 8y ago
"poor sleep causes ..." or does it? "... causes poor sleep" or does it? Which one is it? Neither yet both? Come on folks, we learned this in 3rd grade. The real answer is "it's complicated".
- LeonB 8y ago
  It’s likely that both are true. It’s likely to be a bi-directional relationship.
internet_user 8y ago
The scientist that developed treatment for narcolepsy (GHB supposedly normalizes sleep), he is currently investigating GHB in dementia patients: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16837107 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16837107
neuromantik8086 8y ago
This isn't actually a particularly new idea- Barbara Oakley's Coursera course ("Learning How to Learn") actually cites another researcher (name forgotten) in the same field working with similar sets of theoretical assumptions.
Krowbart 8y ago
Or, those that know how to manage their time and get enough sleep are those with healthy brains. Causality? No, just jumping to conclusions like this article.
axl 8y ago
Something else to consider - what if the reason these plaques are unable to be cleaned out in some is the result of a life (decades)-long “deep” sleep deprivation (i.e, still getting sleep but not a good amount of regular, deep sleep where this cleaning process would normally occur), and the reason for this chronic sleep deprivation was some genetic pre-disposition, such as bruxism, which would cause little to no “deep sleep,” or perhaps brought on form of chronic dehydration due to a genetic predisposition for diabetes / sugary drinks / blood sugar imbalance, causing brain fogginess rather than deep sleep during a period of involuntary fasting, or a myriad of other unnoticeable deep- sleep-depriving illnesses? I am not suggesting I have any answers; only questions and curiosities for the puzzling subject.
- PSZD 8y ago
  You're just considering "involuntary" lack of sleep, when there seems to be a serious epidemic of voluntary sleeplessness as indicated by frequent boasting about how little sleep one can get by on.
  - rusk 8y ago
    Both Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher boasted of how little they needed to sleep. But two data points but highly salient ones.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      Donald Trump too.
      - rusk 8y ago
        Yeah but he's probably making it up.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - 8y ago
snikeris 8y ago
This was discussed in a Joe Rogan podcast w/ a sleep expert: http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/matthew-walker http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/matthew-walker I learned a lot, and it changed my sleep behaviors.
- FrankyHollywood 8y ago
  His Google talk is also very interesting, a lot of other effects besides Alzheimer's are related to sleep deprivation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ
- fnwx17 8y ago
  I've almost completely switched to decaf coffee (which still has 15-30% the amount of caffeine normally found in regular coffee) after reading "Why Do We Sleep" by Matthew Walker. And half of the office here is either reading it now or wants to start reading it
  - citrablue 8y ago
    The American standard for decaf coffee is to remove 97% of caffeine content[0]. (Note - I couldn't find specific CFRs on an official government site, so it's possible this is just a recommendation and not actually enforced. However, a quick google will confirm that this is the consensus on how things are supposed to operate - I make no comment on how they actually operate.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaffeination#Caffeine_content_of_decaffeinated_coffee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaffeination#Caffeine_conten...
  - sushid 8y ago
    If you drink Swiss Water decaf, it's 99.9% caffeine free.

163 points by mmazzarolo 8y ago

marvel_boy 8y ago

That explains the relation between Alzheimer and sleeping disorders.

cpncrunch 8y ago
No it doesnt. Read the article...causality is still unvlear.
- notaharvardmba 8y ago
  Let's walk through this: People who are insomniacs are more likely to get less sleep. Could this same group also more likely to take anticholinergic sleep drugs (diphenhydramine)? There is a good link starting to be established between those drugs and dementias of all types. See https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2091745 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar..., or a bloggy summary if you're so inclined: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-drugs-like-benadryl-linked-increased-dementia-risk-201501287667 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-d... The link is alarming enough you should think seriously before taking things like Zzzquil, Benadryl, Tylenol PM, etc. if you value your mental faculties.. But maybe the correlation in this article is at least partially explained by this other link. Personally the other theories (brain garbage collection during sleep, etc.) also make a lot of sense. And don't forget about the fungal theory: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24614898 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24614898
  - lucidone 8y ago
    I don't have much to add, but I know some of these drugs (ie DPH) are serious deliriants at high doses. It causing a loss of mental faculties with long term use would not surprise me.
  - toast0 8y ago
    Diphenhydramine is an anti-hystimine, that happens to make you drowsy (it's also a mild anti-depresent, which lead to somr targetted anti-depresents).
    - loa-in-backup 8y ago
      I guess it's a complex organic molecule with multiple interactions
- guiambros 8y ago
  True. But it's also well known that Alzheimer's increases the buildup of amyloid-beta, which latches into hippocampus (memory) and thalamus (which controls sleep). With lack of sleep, your brain is unable to get rid of the excess of amyloid-beta. It's unknown if lack of sleep causes the onset of Alzheimer's, but the opposite is likely true: Alzheimer's patients don't sleep well. So once it starts to develop, it spirals down likely because of sleep deficiency, thus accelerating memory loss. Source: "Why We Sleep", by Matthew Walker. We had a few threads recently about the book here [1], [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17381235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17381235 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446932

melling 8y ago

So, if Bill Gates gets his early detection method soon, people can start to get some Ambien induced extra sleep and monitor their progress. https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-better-way-of-diagnosing-Alzheimers https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/A-better-way-of-diagnosing...

aldoushuxley001 8y ago
why Ambien induced?
- bpchaps 8y ago
  Why is this downvoted?
smnplk 8y ago
Or you can just study more and produce more neurons.
- danharaj 8y ago
  What?
- dbasedweeb 8y ago
  I think you may be confusing synapses and neurons.
- smnplk 8y ago
  Before downvoting me, please google your shit. Ok, I used the wrong term here, I meant synapses. If you engage regularly in mental stimulating activities, you increase the number of synapses and thus halting or postponing the development of Alzheimer disease. Google for Nun study.
LeonB 8y ago
The best way to improve sleep is CBTI, definitely not Ambien. Ambien doesn’t induce sleep. It induces a non waking state.

asdf1234tx 8y ago

"poor sleep causes ..." or does it? "... causes poor sleep" or does it? Which one is it? Neither yet both? Come on folks, we learned this in 3rd grade. The real answer is "it's complicated".

LeonB 8y ago
It’s likely that both are true. It’s likely to be a bi-directional relationship.

internet_user 8y ago

The scientist that developed treatment for narcolepsy (GHB supposedly normalizes sleep), he is currently investigating GHB in dementia patients: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16837107 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16837107

neuromantik8086 8y ago

This isn't actually a particularly new idea- Barbara Oakley's Coursera course ("Learning How to Learn") actually cites another researcher (name forgotten) in the same field working with similar sets of theoretical assumptions.

Krowbart 8y ago

Or, those that know how to manage their time and get enough sleep are those with healthy brains. Causality? No, just jumping to conclusions like this article.

axl 8y ago

Something else to consider - what if the reason these plaques are unable to be cleaned out in some is the result of a life (decades)-long “deep” sleep deprivation (i.e, still getting sleep but not a good amount of regular, deep sleep where this cleaning process would normally occur), and the reason for this chronic sleep deprivation was some genetic pre-disposition, such as bruxism, which would cause little to no “deep sleep,” or perhaps brought on form of chronic dehydration due to a genetic predisposition for diabetes / sugary drinks / blood sugar imbalance, causing brain fogginess rather than deep sleep during a period of involuntary fasting, or a myriad of other unnoticeable deep- sleep-depriving illnesses? I am not suggesting I have any answers; only questions and curiosities for the puzzling subject.

PSZD 8y ago
You're just considering "involuntary" lack of sleep, when there seems to be a serious epidemic of voluntary sleeplessness as indicated by frequent boasting about how little sleep one can get by on.
- rusk 8y ago
  Both Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher boasted of how little they needed to sleep. But two data points but highly salient ones.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
    Donald Trump too.
    - rusk 8y ago
      Yeah but he's probably making it up.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- 8y ago

snikeris 8y ago

This was discussed in a Joe Rogan podcast w/ a sleep expert: http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/matthew-walker http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/matthew-walker I learned a lot, and it changed my sleep behaviors.

FrankyHollywood 8y ago
His Google talk is also very interesting, a lot of other effects besides Alzheimer's are related to sleep deprivation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ
fnwx17 8y ago
I've almost completely switched to decaf coffee (which still has 15-30% the amount of caffeine normally found in regular coffee) after reading "Why Do We Sleep" by Matthew Walker. And half of the office here is either reading it now or wants to start reading it
- citrablue 8y ago
  The American standard for decaf coffee is to remove 97% of caffeine content[0]. (Note - I couldn't find specific CFRs on an official government site, so it's possible this is just a recommendation and not actually enforced. However, a quick google will confirm that this is the consensus on how things are supposed to operate - I make no comment on how they actually operate.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaffeination#Caffeine_content_of_decaffeinated_coffee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decaffeination#Caffeine_conten...
- sushid 8y ago
  If you drink Swiss Water decaf, it's 99.9% caffeine free.