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I don’t think policy can fix this. The only peaceful solution I can imagine is a general rebellion against the use of money to organize our economy. If you are

I don’t think policy can fix this. The only peaceful solution I can imagine is a general rebellion against the use of money to organize our economy. If you are reading this you are a prime candidate to implement alternatives. Hint: bitcoin isn’t it.

wycs 8y ago
Money seems like an extremely good coordination mechanism to me. Name something that can perform the purpose of money that is not more coercive and less efficient than money.
- jchanimal 8y ago
  Money’s problem is its commodity nature. It obscures the supply chain and puts unjust gains on the same footing as useful work. A replacement would make supply chains transparent and make relationships and reputation primary. I have a pet project along these lines but I’d like to hear other ideas: https://www.wired.com/2014/07/document-coin https://www.wired.com/2014/07/document-coin
  - nine_k 8y ago
    I wonder how do you separate "unjust gains" from "just". Criminal proceeds can be detected and reverted by criminal courts.
    - jchanimal 8y ago
      If you don’t convert value to a commodity form, but instead trade in representations of the original work, then just and unjust can be in the eye of the beholder. With commodity currency, distant parties never have a chance to know.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
prolikewh0a 8y ago
How about re-implementing unions in mass? When union membership rises, inequality declines [1]. [1] https://www.epi.org/news/union-membership-declines-inequality-rises/ https://www.epi.org/news/union-membership-declines-inequalit...
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  But unions are also making business less efficient, so eventually it will be surpassed by an another business, so business will move to country with cheaper labor or will die.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    If the business is mainly run by the unionized workers, I don't think the workers would willingly move their own jobs out of the country.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      Why don't workers start their own worker-owned and unionised companies if they want to?
      - prolikewh0a 8y ago
        They do, but it's not as easy as you make it out to be. There are plenty of co-ops in this country, but they're typically local small chains.
        chrisseaton 8y ago
        I think the problem is that powerful tech companies aren't started by committee of union stewards - it's down to a couple of motivated people with talent and a good idea.
        knuththetruth 8y ago
internet_user 8y ago
must be ERC20 tokens then? /s
pmoriarty 8y ago
The elimination of money would be one of the most disruptive events in the history of humanity. It's likely that many millions if not billions of people would die in the ensuing turmoil and our society as we know it today would cease to exist. Consider just two critical aspects of our society that require money to run smoothly and efficiently: modern medicine and industrial agriculture. Billions of people depend on them to survive, and the reason people participate in them as they do is mostly for money. If you replace money with, say, barter, how many sheep or goats are you going to pay for a modern hospital or for a pharmaceutical factory, or the network of roads and airports needed to deliver food and other goods? How are you going to transport all those sheep and goats throughout our ever more interconnected world? At the very least, the infrastructure is just not there for us to switch to barter anywhere in the foreseable future. Even if we could/did switch, all sorts of new power structures would likely arise and overthrow existing ones, and it's far from guaranteed that the transition will be bloodless. More likely, a lot of people would oppose it and it's not inconceivable that wars could be started over it -- especially as the change would probably not happen globally at once, but some countries would convert to barter first while others will still have money, leading to power imbalances, migration of money and the people who have it, massively influencing the economies, societies, and politics of the countries involved. If the switch from money is not to barter, then to what? It's good to think about these things, and it's critical that our world change from the destructive course it's on now, but I for one don't see a way to extract money out of the equation without massive suffering. My own slim hope rests on consciousness change, perhaps through education, increased communication, and maybe even psychedelics. The psychedelic renaissance has begun, and these substances are one of the most effective means of attaining radical changes in perspective and increasing creativity. Perhaps through them some solution that's not yet evident could arise, and if enough people change their mind maybe we could change our society towards a more positive and inclusive model.
- jchanimal 8y ago
  Barter has never been how economies were organized, except under duress like a prison camp. If you are interested in the topic I suggest David Graeber’s Debt: The First 5000 Years. The takeaway- relationships and reputation among groups of people who know each other have organized economies far longer than money has. IMHO social media should allow us to act like a global village, and villages don’t need money to coordinate.
closeparen 8y ago
Central Planning as a Service?

wycs 8y ago

Money seems like an extremely good coordination mechanism to me. Name something that can perform the purpose of money that is not more coercive and less efficient than money.

jchanimal 8y ago
Money’s problem is its commodity nature. It obscures the supply chain and puts unjust gains on the same footing as useful work. A replacement would make supply chains transparent and make relationships and reputation primary. I have a pet project along these lines but I’d like to hear other ideas: https://www.wired.com/2014/07/document-coin https://www.wired.com/2014/07/document-coin
- nine_k 8y ago
  I wonder how do you separate "unjust gains" from "just". Criminal proceeds can be detected and reverted by criminal courts.
  - jchanimal 8y ago
    If you don’t convert value to a commodity form, but instead trade in representations of the original work, then just and unjust can be in the eye of the beholder. With commodity currency, distant parties never have a chance to know.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

prolikewh0a 8y ago

How about re-implementing unions in mass? When union membership rises, inequality declines [1]. [1] https://www.epi.org/news/union-membership-declines-inequality-rises/ https://www.epi.org/news/union-membership-declines-inequalit...

v_lisivka 8y ago
But unions are also making business less efficient, so eventually it will be surpassed by an another business, so business will move to country with cheaper labor or will die.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  If the business is mainly run by the unionized workers, I don't think the workers would willingly move their own jobs out of the country.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Why don't workers start their own worker-owned and unionised companies if they want to?
    - prolikewh0a 8y ago
      They do, but it's not as easy as you make it out to be. There are plenty of co-ops in this country, but they're typically local small chains.
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        I think the problem is that powerful tech companies aren't started by committee of union stewards - it's down to a couple of motivated people with talent and a good idea.
        knuththetruth 8y ago

internet_user 8y ago

must be ERC20 tokens then? /s

pmoriarty 8y ago

The elimination of money would be one of the most disruptive events in the history of humanity. It's likely that many millions if not billions of people would die in the ensuing turmoil and our society as we know it today would cease to exist. Consider just two critical aspects of our society that require money to run smoothly and efficiently: modern medicine and industrial agriculture. Billions of people depend on them to survive, and the reason people participate in them as they do is mostly for money. If you replace money with, say, barter, how many sheep or goats are you going to pay for a modern hospital or for a pharmaceutical factory, or the network of roads and airports needed to deliver food and other goods? How are you going to transport all those sheep and goats throughout our ever more interconnected world? At the very least, the infrastructure is just not there for us to switch to barter anywhere in the foreseable future. Even if we could/did switch, all sorts of new power structures would likely arise and overthrow existing ones, and it's far from guaranteed that the transition will be bloodless. More likely, a lot of people would oppose it and it's not inconceivable that wars could be started over it -- especially as the change would probably not happen globally at once, but some countries would convert to barter first while others will still have money, leading to power imbalances, migration of money and the people who have it, massively influencing the economies, societies, and politics of the countries involved. If the switch from money is not to barter, then to what? It's good to think about these things, and it's critical that our world change from the destructive course it's on now, but I for one don't see a way to extract money out of the equation without massive suffering. My own slim hope rests on consciousness change, perhaps through education, increased communication, and maybe even psychedelics. The psychedelic renaissance has begun, and these substances are one of the most effective means of attaining radical changes in perspective and increasing creativity. Perhaps through them some solution that's not yet evident could arise, and if enough people change their mind maybe we could change our society towards a more positive and inclusive model.

jchanimal 8y ago
Barter has never been how economies were organized, except under duress like a prison camp. If you are interested in the topic I suggest David Graeber’s Debt: The First 5000 Years. The takeaway- relationships and reputation among groups of people who know each other have organized economies far longer than money has. IMHO social media should allow us to act like a global village, and villages don’t need money to coordinate.

closeparen 8y ago

Central Planning as a Service?