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I agree that such standardization would be valuable, and I will try to agitate for that. For the average person, however, it seems that a web browser is practic

by mohn 8y ago

I agree that such standardization would be valuable, and I will try to agitate for that. For the average person, however, it seems that a web browser is practically the whole OS to them. I bet a media player, and office productivity software round out the top three applications. Any OS that offers a stable platform for running those could theoretically satisfy a huge chunk of the population. For this hypothetical average user, if a browser is the only interface they use and have familiarity with, what difference does the underlying OS make to them? In this regard, mobile devices have already filled much of that niche. With all the news stories lately about data collection and misuse, I hope that opposition to surveillance is growing among the population. Maybe one day they'll see it like this: I can run my browser here, pay Microsoft for the privilege, make it easy for them to surveil me, and accept their pushy updates with unwanted restarts. Or I can run it on this other OS that costs $0, and doesn't send data back to Microsoft. Maybe I'm misjudging the population and they actually don't care at all, but I hope that's changing with the past few years of data scandals, and the recent deluge of ToS update emails from companies preparing for the GDPR. The phrase "data collection", and some idea of its consequences, should now be more prominent in the collective consciousness. It strikes me as a great time for FLOSS software to try riding the wave of that attitude.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> For the average person, however, Yeah, see, Linux Desktop evangelists have been using variations of the "but for the average person..." line for 2 decades now. Where has that gotten them? > what difference does the underlying OS make to them? In this regard, mobile devices have already filled much of that niche. On this I agree. Therefore: don't bother targeting this class of user since they aren't someone who needs a desktop OS. > It strikes me as a great time for FLOSS software to try riding the wave of that attitude. I don't think so, and the reason is simple: FLOSS software isn't (usually) developed as a product. Very little consideration is given to the end user experience in terms of convenience, simplicity, flexibility, etc. The developers build whatever it is they want to make and then shove it into the world, which is fine so long as you're not asking others to actually use it.
- mohn 8y ago
  > don't bother targeting this class of user since they aren't someone who needs a desktop OS If they only want to consume content, then yeah, they have little need for a desktop OS. They still stand to gain from a system with less surveillance. I found the LineageOS install process to be pretty simple, but I have some tech experience. It seems to me that a good first step would be legal mandates that users be able to unlock the bootloaders of their mobile devices and reflash. Even if the end user doesn't have the skills to do it themselves, at least phone service shops could do it without having to use a questionable, unauditable, exploit tool. I think the world would be a better place if more people were interested in making stuff, and making stuff becomes much easier with a full-featured OS. So, to me, that population is still worth targeting with a "think of the cool stuff you could make". What's the solution? I don't know. Encourage kids to repair, reverse-engineer, and build their own stuff, from software to hardware? Support the "maker" trend? When I was a kid, I had dreams of building robots and it seemed totally out of reach because there was little going on in my town. Nowadays all the pieces are available commercially off the shelf, many are cheap, and some are quite well polished: I certainly evangelize the Arduino when I see a simple automation problem that needs to be solved on the cheap. Then again, I work in an academic research environment where buying the corresponding industrial-grade hardware would take a big bite out of the budget. In this setting, it's easier to justify spending a little on hardware, and more on hours. I think the calculus is similar in the developing world, so maybe they're the ones to target. As I understand, Linux is doing better there than in the US. > FLOSS software isn't (usually) developed as a product. Very little consideration is given to the end user experience in terms of convenience, simplicity, flexibility, etc. That's for damn sure. I don't have any solution for that other than the wishful thinking above: if more people were interested in and capable of making things, then maybe there would be more pull requests with small fixes for bugs and usability warts. FLOSS development today seems a lot like herding cats, so maybe adding more people will just make it worse. But, instead of a user firing off a poorly written bug report, probably directed to the wrong section of the project tracker, it would be great if more of the userbase instead had the expertise to make bugfixes and submit them. I am enjoying this back-and-forth, but if you've been around the net a time or two and are totally sick of discussions like these, I understand. I think we already agree about a lot of this.

by mohn 8y ago

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> For the average person, however, Yeah, see, Linux Desktop evangelists have been using variations of the "but for the average person..." line for 2 decades now. Where has that gotten them? > what difference does the underlying OS make to them? In this regard, mobile devices have already filled much of that niche. On this I agree. Therefore: don't bother targeting this class of user since they aren't someone who needs a desktop OS. > It strikes me as a great time for FLOSS software to try riding the wave of that attitude. I don't think so, and the reason is simple: FLOSS software isn't (usually) developed as a product. Very little consideration is given to the end user experience in terms of convenience, simplicity, flexibility, etc. The developers build whatever it is they want to make and then shove it into the world, which is fine so long as you're not asking others to actually use it.

mohn 8y ago
> don't bother targeting this class of user since they aren't someone who needs a desktop OS If they only want to consume content, then yeah, they have little need for a desktop OS. They still stand to gain from a system with less surveillance. I found the LineageOS install process to be pretty simple, but I have some tech experience. It seems to me that a good first step would be legal mandates that users be able to unlock the bootloaders of their mobile devices and reflash. Even if the end user doesn't have the skills to do it themselves, at least phone service shops could do it without having to use a questionable, unauditable, exploit tool. I think the world would be a better place if more people were interested in making stuff, and making stuff becomes much easier with a full-featured OS. So, to me, that population is still worth targeting with a "think of the cool stuff you could make". What's the solution? I don't know. Encourage kids to repair, reverse-engineer, and build their own stuff, from software to hardware? Support the "maker" trend? When I was a kid, I had dreams of building robots and it seemed totally out of reach because there was little going on in my town. Nowadays all the pieces are available commercially off the shelf, many are cheap, and some are quite well polished: I certainly evangelize the Arduino when I see a simple automation problem that needs to be solved on the cheap. Then again, I work in an academic research environment where buying the corresponding industrial-grade hardware would take a big bite out of the budget. In this setting, it's easier to justify spending a little on hardware, and more on hours. I think the calculus is similar in the developing world, so maybe they're the ones to target. As I understand, Linux is doing better there than in the US. > FLOSS software isn't (usually) developed as a product. Very little consideration is given to the end user experience in terms of convenience, simplicity, flexibility, etc. That's for damn sure. I don't have any solution for that other than the wishful thinking above: if more people were interested in and capable of making things, then maybe there would be more pull requests with small fixes for bugs and usability warts. FLOSS development today seems a lot like herding cats, so maybe adding more people will just make it worse. But, instead of a user firing off a poorly written bug report, probably directed to the wrong section of the project tracker, it would be great if more of the userbase instead had the expertise to make bugfixes and submit them. I am enjoying this back-and-forth, but if you've been around the net a time or two and are totally sick of discussions like these, I understand. I think we already agree about a lot of this.