6 ms·

The hard part, at least here in Ontario, is this: > 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks. Almost

The hard part, at least here in Ontario, is this: > 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks. Almost every small town in Ontario is car-centric. The big ugly parking lots push the shops further from the street. There is no bike lanes to speak of. The coffee shops don't feel lively, they feel depressed, and the coffee is usually Tim Hortons or worse. What I want is a hipster small town, built around bikes and walkability. Close enough to a lake to be fun, but not so close to make it all about "water life". I want a city where artists and computer scientists can both afford to be there. High property taxes, but with a per-person dividend / basic income so the effective property taxes are progressive.

noelwelsh 8y ago
Don't we all! I don't think those places exist. Berlin might be the closest. It's big but easy to get around by bike or public transport, and the cost of living isn't that high, though it's climbing. Everywhere else I can think of (mostly considering the US or UK) is already expensive. I visited recently, and if I was single I'd strongly consider moving there.
metamicah 8y ago
Your desire for a "hipster small town, built around bikes and walkability" describes the cores of a lot of college towns: Olympia, Missoula, Boise, Eugene, Arcata, Davis, Bozeman, etc. They all have good coffee, too! Not sure if there are similar towns in Canada. However, a common lament in these towns is that housing costs are increasing as people move there from the cities. It can be... socially awkward... to be a carpetbagger in a place where everyone knows everyone else's story. Maybe that's why you've mentioned taxes and basic income in your comment.
- dragant 8y ago
  100% agree! I would also add Ann Arbor, Michigan to the mix. These "small towns" have wonderfully integrated colleges into the small town such that there are positive benefits for both including good schools and things to do...what many "freelancers" with kids want.
  - bluedino 8y ago
    Ann Arbor is crowded, expensive, full of college kids, is a clusterfuck every time there’s an event (football game, hash bash, etc)
- tonyedgecombe 8y ago
  However, a common lament in these towns is that housing costs are increasing as people move there from the cities. If they are popular that is a good reason to build more of them.
  - mmt 8y ago
    The problem with that glib-sounding notion is that, besides being, potentially, a chicken-and-egg issue, is that the amount of available, suitable land is much more limited than the vastness of, for example, the USA, would suggest. The first could be solved by something like the UK's New Towns, although that requires a level of government involvement that is likely politically impossible in the US and perhaps Canada, as well. The second is the more important issue, since, based on many of the comments, people don't seem to merely want to live nearby to another few thousand people. They also want lakes, forests, mountains, or some other geographic or natural feature. They also need provisions and Internet, which means pre-existing infrastructure nearby.
randomdata 8y ago
> most every small town in Ontario is car-centric. I don't know that I agree. I live in a small Ontario town. Pop. ~2,000. I don't ever feel the need to drive other than when leaving town to visit people who live outside of town. Everything I need on a day-to-day basis is easily walkable. > What I want is a hipster small town, built around bikes and walkability. Close enough to a lake to be fun, but not so close to make it all about "water life". I want a city where artists and computer scientists can both afford to be there. I think you described the Ontario town I grew up in. Pop. ~1,000. Near the lake, hipster town that has a booming (relatively speaking) tech industry. The downside is that everyone wants to live in the kind of town you described, so housing there is now just about as expensive as Toronto. That includes me. I would love to go back. But the costs are tough to justify.
- nwatson 8y ago
  Winston-Salem, NC has a great downtown scene with affordable living close by. I've started to commute the 10 miles to my co-working space (I don't live near downtown) some of the time by bicycle and drivers are surprisingly respectful. Downtown links to a great 15-mile bike ride around Salem Lake (7 miles around the lake itself). The arts are great here with many artists training and living here, quite a few breweries, restaurants. I work remote for a California company and have never had a local job, so in truth I don't know what employment / pay is like here ... but if you can swing remote-mostly the quality-of-life and affordability are definitely good. Education choices are quite good as well for kids.
  - christophilus 8y ago
    I can vouch for this. I live in the upstate of SC (in an equally walkable town near the eminently walkable Greenville). But I've spent some time in Winston-Salem. It's a great town. The US does have walkable towns, if you look for them.
- maxsilver 8y ago
  > > most every small town in Ontario is car-centric. > I don't know that I agree. For what it's worth, 'car-centric' has nothing to do with actual automobiles. "Car-centric" is coded language for "unplanned therefore affordable". Strip malls, billboard signs, 10 lane light intersections, none of this is "car-centric", none of this is designed for cars, no regular person enjoys driving through that. But it's always cheap, so it's everywhere. Those represent an absolute-cheapest-option thinking, ignoring all else. Cars are just as much an afterthought as pedestrians and bicycles and busses are. Roads that are actually designed for cars are freeways direct to other freeways, with no pedestrians and no bicycles and no oncoming traffic and no stoplights and no intersections ever and parking lots/ramps directly attached to freeway exits. It just so happens, that these are generally the safest roads too (in both US/Canada, and Europe) despite also being the fastest roads. Of course, construction of this rarely-to-never happens, "car-centric" roads rarely get built because it costs a bit more money. But a 5 lane 'arterial' road, with turn lanes and curb cuts for every random store that wants it? Slap some sidewalks and a bike lane on it? Pedestrians, bicyclists, and drivers will hate that, and it's terribly unsafe for all modes, but it's always the cheapest option to go with so it's the default. And it's so cheap that every municipality in the country can build them everywhere without thinking. "Car-centric" has absolutely nothing to do with cars. "Car-centric" is complaining about areas being having the cheapest possible design (and therefore being somewhat affordable), with an unrelated jab against cars thrown in out of spite.
jasonkester 8y ago
Sounds like you want Europe then. The best thing about living here (coming from the 'states) is the density in the cities and towns. You can realistically have a town with a vibrant center full of cafes, bakeries, a bar/brasserie or three, and a grocery store in a town of a couple thousand people, all living within the area equivalent to 4 square city blocks. Walk a few hundred yards the other direction and you'll find yourself in the countryside. It's quite refreshing after living in an American suburb where you can drive in a straight line in any directions and pass nothing but Albertsons, Starbucks, Apartment Complex, Walgreens, Albertsons, repeat for 20 miles... without ever escaping into the country.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  Yep. I was there last summer; loved it. Vilnius was my favourite, but there were lots of little places all throughout that I just adored. The only city I didn't really like was Kiev. The city was very car centric, the wealth gap was too huge, and the Russian they speak / write is hard for me to understand given how basic my understanding is. People were very kind though. But why can't Ontario have a town like this? Why can't we get 5000 people to kickstarter a town? Have really strict building codes and really pro-human policies. Edit: What town are you, if you don't mind my asking. I'm planning on going back to Europe at some point.
  - jackcosgrove 8y ago
    European towns were designed before cars were invented, and density was also often a product of defending the city from attack. To answer your question, it is because sprawling car-centric localities are the cheapest way (in the short term) to maximize the living space/cost ratio. European style cities don't spring up from empty fields anymore because they are more expensive to build. Your comment about building codes is telling. European cities did not form in the way they did because of building codes. They formed for economic reasons in a pre-industrial era. The same way American and Canadian, and newer European cities sprawl for economic reasons. That you bring up building codes is a tacit acknowledgement that to make a medieval city layout now would require forcing builders and buyers to pay more than they would otherwise. Anyways, a medieval city layout nowadays would still be an inauthentic pastiche, sort of like a Tudor-style Celebration, Florida. Form ever follows function, and all that.
grecy 8y ago
Don't be afraid to leave Ontario. Every single "Onterrible" resident I meet in Western Canada has only one regret. They wish they had left earlier.
richjdsmith 8y ago
Revelstoke, BC sounds right up your alley.
stared 8y ago
Would Waterloo/Kitchener work? Visited there to give some academic talks, liked it a lot (it's so beautiful during autumn!) and with some coffeeshop life.

noelwelsh 8y ago

Don't we all! I don't think those places exist. Berlin might be the closest. It's big but easy to get around by bike or public transport, and the cost of living isn't that high, though it's climbing. Everywhere else I can think of (mostly considering the US or UK) is already expensive. I visited recently, and if I was single I'd strongly consider moving there.

metamicah 8y ago

Your desire for a "hipster small town, built around bikes and walkability" describes the cores of a lot of college towns: Olympia, Missoula, Boise, Eugene, Arcata, Davis, Bozeman, etc. They all have good coffee, too! Not sure if there are similar towns in Canada. However, a common lament in these towns is that housing costs are increasing as people move there from the cities. It can be... socially awkward... to be a carpetbagger in a place where everyone knows everyone else's story. Maybe that's why you've mentioned taxes and basic income in your comment.

dragant 8y ago
100% agree! I would also add Ann Arbor, Michigan to the mix. These "small towns" have wonderfully integrated colleges into the small town such that there are positive benefits for both including good schools and things to do...what many "freelancers" with kids want.
- bluedino 8y ago
  Ann Arbor is crowded, expensive, full of college kids, is a clusterfuck every time there’s an event (football game, hash bash, etc)
tonyedgecombe 8y ago
However, a common lament in these towns is that housing costs are increasing as people move there from the cities. If they are popular that is a good reason to build more of them.
- mmt 8y ago
  The problem with that glib-sounding notion is that, besides being, potentially, a chicken-and-egg issue, is that the amount of available, suitable land is much more limited than the vastness of, for example, the USA, would suggest. The first could be solved by something like the UK's New Towns, although that requires a level of government involvement that is likely politically impossible in the US and perhaps Canada, as well. The second is the more important issue, since, based on many of the comments, people don't seem to merely want to live nearby to another few thousand people. They also want lakes, forests, mountains, or some other geographic or natural feature. They also need provisions and Internet, which means pre-existing infrastructure nearby.

randomdata 8y ago

> most every small town in Ontario is car-centric. I don't know that I agree. I live in a small Ontario town. Pop. ~2,000. I don't ever feel the need to drive other than when leaving town to visit people who live outside of town. Everything I need on a day-to-day basis is easily walkable. > What I want is a hipster small town, built around bikes and walkability. Close enough to a lake to be fun, but not so close to make it all about "water life". I want a city where artists and computer scientists can both afford to be there. I think you described the Ontario town I grew up in. Pop. ~1,000. Near the lake, hipster town that has a booming (relatively speaking) tech industry. The downside is that everyone wants to live in the kind of town you described, so housing there is now just about as expensive as Toronto. That includes me. I would love to go back. But the costs are tough to justify.

nwatson 8y ago
Winston-Salem, NC has a great downtown scene with affordable living close by. I've started to commute the 10 miles to my co-working space (I don't live near downtown) some of the time by bicycle and drivers are surprisingly respectful. Downtown links to a great 15-mile bike ride around Salem Lake (7 miles around the lake itself). The arts are great here with many artists training and living here, quite a few breweries, restaurants. I work remote for a California company and have never had a local job, so in truth I don't know what employment / pay is like here ... but if you can swing remote-mostly the quality-of-life and affordability are definitely good. Education choices are quite good as well for kids.
- christophilus 8y ago
  I can vouch for this. I live in the upstate of SC (in an equally walkable town near the eminently walkable Greenville). But I've spent some time in Winston-Salem. It's a great town. The US does have walkable towns, if you look for them.
maxsilver 8y ago
> > most every small town in Ontario is car-centric. > I don't know that I agree. For what it's worth, 'car-centric' has nothing to do with actual automobiles. "Car-centric" is coded language for "unplanned therefore affordable". Strip malls, billboard signs, 10 lane light intersections, none of this is "car-centric", none of this is designed for cars, no regular person enjoys driving through that. But it's always cheap, so it's everywhere. Those represent an absolute-cheapest-option thinking, ignoring all else. Cars are just as much an afterthought as pedestrians and bicycles and busses are. Roads that are actually designed for cars are freeways direct to other freeways, with no pedestrians and no bicycles and no oncoming traffic and no stoplights and no intersections ever and parking lots/ramps directly attached to freeway exits. It just so happens, that these are generally the safest roads too (in both US/Canada, and Europe) despite also being the fastest roads. Of course, construction of this rarely-to-never happens, "car-centric" roads rarely get built because it costs a bit more money. But a 5 lane 'arterial' road, with turn lanes and curb cuts for every random store that wants it? Slap some sidewalks and a bike lane on it? Pedestrians, bicyclists, and drivers will hate that, and it's terribly unsafe for all modes, but it's always the cheapest option to go with so it's the default. And it's so cheap that every municipality in the country can build them everywhere without thinking. "Car-centric" has absolutely nothing to do with cars. "Car-centric" is complaining about areas being having the cheapest possible design (and therefore being somewhat affordable), with an unrelated jab against cars thrown in out of spite.

jasonkester 8y ago

Sounds like you want Europe then. The best thing about living here (coming from the 'states) is the density in the cities and towns. You can realistically have a town with a vibrant center full of cafes, bakeries, a bar/brasserie or three, and a grocery store in a town of a couple thousand people, all living within the area equivalent to 4 square city blocks. Walk a few hundred yards the other direction and you'll find yourself in the countryside. It's quite refreshing after living in an American suburb where you can drive in a straight line in any directions and pass nothing but Albertsons, Starbucks, Apartment Complex, Walgreens, Albertsons, repeat for 20 miles... without ever escaping into the country.

3pt14159 8y ago
Yep. I was there last summer; loved it. Vilnius was my favourite, but there were lots of little places all throughout that I just adored. The only city I didn't really like was Kiev. The city was very car centric, the wealth gap was too huge, and the Russian they speak / write is hard for me to understand given how basic my understanding is. People were very kind though. But why can't Ontario have a town like this? Why can't we get 5000 people to kickstarter a town? Have really strict building codes and really pro-human policies. Edit: What town are you, if you don't mind my asking. I'm planning on going back to Europe at some point.
- jackcosgrove 8y ago
  European towns were designed before cars were invented, and density was also often a product of defending the city from attack. To answer your question, it is because sprawling car-centric localities are the cheapest way (in the short term) to maximize the living space/cost ratio. European style cities don't spring up from empty fields anymore because they are more expensive to build. Your comment about building codes is telling. European cities did not form in the way they did because of building codes. They formed for economic reasons in a pre-industrial era. The same way American and Canadian, and newer European cities sprawl for economic reasons. That you bring up building codes is a tacit acknowledgement that to make a medieval city layout now would require forcing builders and buyers to pay more than they would otherwise. Anyways, a medieval city layout nowadays would still be an inauthentic pastiche, sort of like a Tudor-style Celebration, Florida. Form ever follows function, and all that.

grecy 8y ago

Don't be afraid to leave Ontario. Every single "Onterrible" resident I meet in Western Canada has only one regret. They wish they had left earlier.

richjdsmith 8y ago

Revelstoke, BC sounds right up your alley.

stared 8y ago

Would Waterloo/Kitchener work? Visited there to give some academic talks, liked it a lot (it's so beautiful during autumn!) and with some coffeeshop life.