4 ms·

ivan, have you actually used it yourself? What did you like/dislike about it? Can you gives us examples? I personally don't like Django that much as it might

by ardit33 19y ago

ivan, have you actually used it yourself? What did you like/dislike about it? Can you gives us examples? I personally don't like Django that much as it might be an overkill, and I kinda liked web.py, but the documentation is so poor and it misses a lot of features from a proper framework. Maybe web2py is the middle ground, and I will give it a look. Dissmissing something, b/c its source codestyle is not pythonic enough for you, is a pretty shallow argument.

ivank 19y ago
I wasn't advocating web.py - emulating its style was just an example of Werkzeug's flexibility. I recommend Django if it fits your application, or rolling your own stack (Werkzeug) if Django doesn't fit. I haven't used web2py because I don't invest time in things I have zero faith in. Edit: full disclosure: I've written code far worse than this (in some ways). I just don't publicly release it and encourage language newbies to build on it.
- mdipierro 19y ago
  Can you make any specific point so that it can be addressed or are you just ranting as usual? Who is doing marketing here? Since when computer science is about faith?
  - ivank 19y ago
    http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling I won't focus on the rest, the reader can judge. Though, I think PEP8 is usually a good start, no matter what the code does.
    - mdipierro 19y ago
      Being a professor who teaches the stuff for a living and grades other people's work, you remind me of that typical PhD student that knows enough to talk about his work but nothing enough in detail to ever graduate. No offense. Let me add that in life is the new things that give you an edge, not those things that everybody knows.
      - ivank 19y ago
        Do you seriously want a laundry list of everything wrong with web2py? Would that help you in some way, or would you refute it with a personal attack? If you do, I could send you an email this week.
        mdipierro 19y ago
        Please do it, to my email or to the web2py mailing list. they will be taken care of or you I will explain to you why I disagree with you.
      - pg 19y ago
        No offense. This is probably a new site record for the unconvincing use of that phrase.
        ardit33 19y ago
        ok, but still his analogy is not bad. Ivan's arguments against web2py so far are unconvincing. It reminds myself, right out of college, when I thought "I knew" things, and I was fully opinionated for everything, as long as I had heard something about it. The Dunnin-Kruger effect in action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
        ivank 19y ago
        I judge software still in development by the people developing it, especially if it's something that'll be part of my project for a long time. It tells me about the direction it's going, and it's a fast and incredibly accurate method. If you heard that Linus Torvalds designed a DVCS, and Microsoft designed a DVCS, which do you think would actually work? Hopefully, that decision wouldn't take more than 10 seconds. There are exceptions; you might have subtly different (but important) requirements than what the library/tool author was designing for. When you see this amount of unjustified duplication and defensive rationalization (including off-site remarks from the developer that building an ORM is easy), warning sirens should go off in your head. I did go through some of the source code, but it's not my job to provide detailed code review. I can say that the packaging is strange, it doesn't resemble Python, and I've seen better versions of everything bundled in web2py. I'm not sure the integration and "ease" of install is worth being stuck to this framework.

by ardit33 19y ago

ivank 19y ago

I wasn't advocating web.py - emulating its style was just an example of Werkzeug's flexibility. I recommend Django if it fits your application, or rolling your own stack (Werkzeug) if Django doesn't fit. I haven't used web2py because I don't invest time in things I have zero faith in. Edit: full disclosure: I've written code far worse than this (in some ways). I just don't publicly release it and encourage language newbies to build on it.

mdipierro 19y ago
Can you make any specific point so that it can be addressed or are you just ranting as usual? Who is doing marketing here? Since when computer science is about faith?
- ivank 19y ago
  http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling I won't focus on the rest, the reader can judge. Though, I think PEP8 is usually a good start, no matter what the code does.
  - mdipierro 19y ago
    Being a professor who teaches the stuff for a living and grades other people's work, you remind me of that typical PhD student that knows enough to talk about his work but nothing enough in detail to ever graduate. No offense. Let me add that in life is the new things that give you an edge, not those things that everybody knows.
    - ivank 19y ago
      Do you seriously want a laundry list of everything wrong with web2py? Would that help you in some way, or would you refute it with a personal attack? If you do, I could send you an email this week.
      - mdipierro 19y ago
        Please do it, to my email or to the web2py mailing list. they will be taken care of or you I will explain to you why I disagree with you.
    - pg 19y ago
      No offense. This is probably a new site record for the unconvincing use of that phrase.
      - ardit33 19y ago
        ok, but still his analogy is not bad. Ivan's arguments against web2py so far are unconvincing. It reminds myself, right out of college, when I thought "I knew" things, and I was fully opinionated for everything, as long as I had heard something about it. The Dunnin-Kruger effect in action. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
        ivank 19y ago
        I judge software still in development by the people developing it, especially if it's something that'll be part of my project for a long time. It tells me about the direction it's going, and it's a fast and incredibly accurate method. If you heard that Linus Torvalds designed a DVCS, and Microsoft designed a DVCS, which do you think would actually work? Hopefully, that decision wouldn't take more than 10 seconds. There are exceptions; you might have subtly different (but important) requirements than what the library/tool author was designing for. When you see this amount of unjustified duplication and defensive rationalization (including off-site remarks from the developer that building an ORM is easy), warning sirens should go off in your head. I did go through some of the source code, but it's not my job to provide detailed code review. I can say that the packaging is strange, it doesn't resemble Python, and I've seen better versions of everything bundled in web2py. I'm not sure the integration and "ease" of install is worth being stuck to this framework.