5 ms·
I think there's merit in a flat structure if the company is inherently small (~10). But once it gets to a medium size company (100+), that usually degrades beca
by esturk 8y ago
I think there's merit in a flat structure if the company is inherently small (~10). But once it gets to a medium size company (100+), that usually degrades because the degree of separation is too low.
What a flat structure entails is a star-like structure where everyone is just 1 degree of separation removed from everyone else. This high degree of coupling is bad in design and IRL because it creates high interdependency like the ex-valver mentioned. As others have mentioned, every action you do effects practically everyone else since people are so closely connected.
There's a reason why most structures are tree-like such that people are sufficiently insulated from others. Creating a comfortable degree of separation will allow better separation of concerns in the things you do.
Value created the 2nd greatest lie in tech about "not having a boss is cool" because it attracts people who think they're too smart to be working for someone else. But if you're working for no-one in the company, you're practically working for everyone.
- hitekker 8y agoInteresting points about how the degree of separation corresponds to insulation of an employee in an organization. I'll remember "if you're working for no-one in the company, you're practically working for everyone" as being in the vein of "if everyone is responsible for something, no one is responsible for that something."
- stealthcat 8y agoKind of like why you never look tired? I'm always tired.
- hitekker 8y agoCould be. The meta-pattern may be more "if an organization pretends to X where X is an essential condition for Y, the organization will end up with the opposite of Y."
- noobermin 8y agoI'm not sure if this is a problem with the structure as much as it is with Valve specifically because many other organizations and companies have a similar flatter structure. Moreover, he points out that Valve wasn't really flat, it had a class of managers and a class of developers (producers). That doesn't sound "flat" to me.
- hitekker 8y agoDisregarding the "no true scotsman", have you ever heard of the Dunbar number? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
- mnm1 8y agoLol. I don't think you understand the fallacy you're referencing at all because it doesn't apply here. The parent is claiming that if a company has managers it doesn't have a flat structure. Not only is this factually correct, it can be proven to be so as the definition of a flat company is one without managers. Of course, by that definition no company with managers is flat, which corresponds to reality.
- Nuzzerino 8y agoReminds me of the film "Office Space", where the protagonist has something like eight managers he answers to. I worked for such a "flat" organization once, and that's how it was. It was not a good thing.
- brodo 8y agoHaving multiple managers to answer to can also be quite good. If they know and respect each other, they will try not to give you too much to do because they don’t want to “steal” time from the other guys. For me this results in having only stuff to do which lies in my area of expertise.
- Matticus_Rex 8y agoIt's flat-ish... but yeah, this is neither something unique to "self-organizing" companies. My company uses Holacracy, and the critiques of Valve simply don't apply.
- gaius 8y agothink there's merit in a flat structure if the company is inherently small (~10) Even in a company that small I’ll wager your boss knows and sets your salary and has the power to fire you, but not vice versa
- bayonetz 8y agoI’ve seen this lead to needing stifling amounts of consensus building to make any decisions. Similarly, since no one is “in charge”, it is way too easy for a minority to pull a de facto veto by refusing to work on or support whatever initiative they don’t like. Without formal hierarchy, there is limited ability for individuals to get delegated the authority to make efficient independent decisions. Last time I was in this type of environment, on a daily basis I felt I was living in a real life The Emperor Wears No Clothes story just where the emperor was the company’s organization, the clothes were the flat hierarchy delusion, and my coworkers were the sycophants cheering along the parade. Positively maddening...