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And what if these actions end up being a net negative not only for Germany, but even on treatment or acceptance of migrants in the future perhaps throughout all

And what if these actions end up being a net negative not only for Germany, but even on treatment or acceptance of migrants in the future perhaps throughout all of Europe? For instance, I think we can agree that the sharp growth in European nationalism is strongly connected to this situation. Brexit was certainly strongly connected to this situation. This is why I would take the opposite view. I do not think that people holding themselves in shame over something they had no direct role in is productive for society. It is bound to lead to emotional decisions which may make one feel good in the short run, yet blow up in your face in the longrun. By contrast had Germany handled the migrants with more consideration to quality, integration, and what their country could comfortably support then we might have seen a huge boon for all parties as an example of how immigration can help both migrants and host countries. But it would also have been seen as heartless because that more responsible action would also have entailed turning away people who were suffering. Short term heartlessness or long term negative outcomes? We can perhaps even see the longterm echoes of this sort of problem in the US. For instance Andrew Jackson wanted to free slaves, but under a system of transition. He proposed that existing slaves only be freed as they were trained and given compensation to start 'proper' lives for themselves. In the mean time new slave children would be taken from slave owners for a modest fee and then educated, trained, and sent abroad (to Santo Domingo in particular) to live life as skilled freemen. This system could be seen as cruel compared to outright freedom, yet here we are many generations after the fact still trying to solve an ongoing problem that the compassionate solution arguably produced.

craigsmansion 8y ago
And what if these actions end up being a net positive for Germany, and Europe by proxy? There will be a lot of German-Syrians, some of whom will return to Syria after things settle down. And they will speak to the disgruntled youth who have lost family there, and will speak positively about their adopted second home country. You want to prevent future terrorist attacks? That's how you do it. Not by bombing them more, but by being a friend in need. > I do not think that people holding themselves in shame over something they had no direct role in Remembering what your society is capable of, even if not directly culpable any more, is not a weakness; it's a strength. Branding that as "emotional decisions" is disingenuous. How a society treats its prisoners and pets is also an "emotional decision", as well as a good indication of how civilised a society is. > I think we can agree that the sharp growth in European nationalism is strongly connected to this situation. I don't think we agree there. > Brexit was certainly strongly connected to this situation. Brexit is strongly connected to the likes of Farage, their insulated partisan press, and UK exceptionalism. > Short term heartlessness or long term negative outcomes? Or a false dichotomy altogether? What exactly are the long term negative outcomes here? > the longterm echoes of this sort of problem in the US. The U.S. has its own share of problems. IMO it's of little use to try and draw comparisons between back-then problems of subjugation and the modern problem of influx of war refugees in Europe.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  As one comment here this is certainly a discussion I'd enjoy continuing, but I find this response pattern of quote - one-liners, quote - one-liner, ... to be incredibly low effort and lacking in substance. If you can speak in any holistic fashion to try to make a coherent point then we can go that route. In my opinion most of your one liners here are 'provably' (at least so much as social views can be proven) false, yet the effort required there to refute each one is probably not worth it. However, at the same time if you think any of these one liners would sufficiently encompass your worldview that compelling evidence to the contrary would change your opinion on matters then please do tell me which one it is.
  - craigsmansion 8y ago
    > I find this response pattern of quote [..] low effort and lacking in substance. It's a format of online discourse that has been used on mailing lists and usenet groups for decades now. It keeps things on point and makes sure we're addressing the same subjects. > if you think any of these one liners "How a society treats its prisoners and pets is also an "emotional decision", as well as a good indication of how civilised a society is." Your arguments are based on "appeal to rationality," which sounds enticing, but is a form of "appeal to nature" when there is no evidence that "things will blow up in your face in the long run."

craigsmansion 8y ago

And what if these actions end up being a net positive for Germany, and Europe by proxy? There will be a lot of German-Syrians, some of whom will return to Syria after things settle down. And they will speak to the disgruntled youth who have lost family there, and will speak positively about their adopted second home country. You want to prevent future terrorist attacks? That's how you do it. Not by bombing them more, but by being a friend in need. > I do not think that people holding themselves in shame over something they had no direct role in Remembering what your society is capable of, even if not directly culpable any more, is not a weakness; it's a strength. Branding that as "emotional decisions" is disingenuous. How a society treats its prisoners and pets is also an "emotional decision", as well as a good indication of how civilised a society is. > I think we can agree that the sharp growth in European nationalism is strongly connected to this situation. I don't think we agree there. > Brexit was certainly strongly connected to this situation. Brexit is strongly connected to the likes of Farage, their insulated partisan press, and UK exceptionalism. > Short term heartlessness or long term negative outcomes? Or a false dichotomy altogether? What exactly are the long term negative outcomes here? > the longterm echoes of this sort of problem in the US. The U.S. has its own share of problems. IMO it's of little use to try and draw comparisons between back-then problems of subjugation and the modern problem of influx of war refugees in Europe.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago
As one comment here this is certainly a discussion I'd enjoy continuing, but I find this response pattern of quote - one-liners, quote - one-liner, ... to be incredibly low effort and lacking in substance. If you can speak in any holistic fashion to try to make a coherent point then we can go that route. In my opinion most of your one liners here are 'provably' (at least so much as social views can be proven) false, yet the effort required there to refute each one is probably not worth it. However, at the same time if you think any of these one liners would sufficiently encompass your worldview that compelling evidence to the contrary would change your opinion on matters then please do tell me which one it is.
- craigsmansion 8y ago
  > I find this response pattern of quote [..] low effort and lacking in substance. It's a format of online discourse that has been used on mailing lists and usenet groups for decades now. It keeps things on point and makes sure we're addressing the same subjects. > if you think any of these one liners "How a society treats its prisoners and pets is also an "emotional decision", as well as a good indication of how civilised a society is." Your arguments are based on "appeal to rationality," which sounds enticing, but is a form of "appeal to nature" when there is no evidence that "things will blow up in your face in the long run."