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Leaking secrets is not a freedom of speech issue. I would agree with you if Snowden narrowly leaked the details of the PRISM program. I think if he did that h

by eeeuo 8y ago

Leaking secrets is not a freedom of speech issue. I would agree with you if Snowden narrowly leaked the details of the PRISM program. I think if he did that he would have been a genuine hero. But he didn't. He downloaded as much secret information as he could, and gave them to organizations that were openly hostile to American interests. Consider the level of detail of methods and sources in the information leaked by Snowden. I think one would have to be extremely naive to believe that Russia and China did not get their hands on the Snowden leaks very quickly(and that's the most charitable interpretation). Therefore, the leaks weakened the US's geopolitical position and improved the position of their rivals. For a command-in-chief to reward a person who did that with a Medal of Freedom would be a truly baffling choice.

bachbach 8y ago
You may correct me if you know better, but I have not seen any information that was leaked that I didn't imagine Russia or China already being very aware of. Was this information revealed to only Russia/China and kept from journalists? If so how do you know about it?
- remarkEon 8y ago
  "They probably already know about it" seems like a weird standard to use for answering the question of if making a particular state secret public harms the National interest.
  - bachbach 8y ago
    That is an issue of reputation or PR.
Buge 8y ago
Did Snowden give is data to organizations that were hostile to the US? I thought he gave it to journalists, and let them censor as they saw fit.
na85 8y ago
>organizations that were openly hostile to American interests. Exactly which organizations are you referring to?
- bitofhope 8y ago
  Yea I'd like to have this elaborated on. As is the GP makes The Guardian sound like Daesh.
- eeeuo 8y ago
  Wikileaks.
  - na85 8y ago
    Snowden went to Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras who aren't with WikiLeaks.
    - eeeuo 8y ago
      This is true, but he also was financially aided, advised and accompanied by Wikileaks every step of the way. Nonetheless, you are correct. I would edit the previous post if I could, as it's not especially critical to the overall point.
      - na85 8y ago
        >This is true, but he also was financially aided, advised and accompanied by Wikileaks every step of the way. Prove it.
        eeeuo 8y ago
        Assange pays for Snowden's flight and hotel: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-reconstruction/behind-snowdens-hong-kong-exit-fear-and-persuasion-idUSBRE95N1CA20130624 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-reconstructi... Assange advises Snowden to move to Russia: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange-told-edward-snowdon-not-seek-asylum-in-latin-america https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange... Sarah Harrison accompanies Snowden on his flight to Russia: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/world/offering-snowden-aid-wikileaks-gets-back-in-the-game.html?r=0&pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/world/offering-snowden-ai...
dmix 8y ago
Isn't it also naive to think China and Russia weren't fully aware of the NSA's capabilities? If anything the only effect it had on intelligence agencies is it accelerated the smaller countries towards this type of mass surveillance, they learned thoroughly what was possible - beyond what you can buy at miltech trade shows. And now we see many awful countries mimicking this type of stuff now, like in Ethiopia. But otherwise for 99% of it the only one it was new and valuable to was the public. As good as the FBI/IC is at counter-intelligence if Snowden can do this stuff I'm sure a highly trained spy recruited by any top tier agency could get similar access. Also notably Snowden did not leak the really sensitive TAO stuff, which was well compartmentalized. He mostly leaked spreadsheets for the 'middle management' in NSA. I'm sure he only revealed a small portion of their top-teir capabilities. And the stuff he did leak was almost always very vague, often just a few bullet points in a spreadsheet was all we had to work with...
- eeeuo 8y ago
  > Isn't it also naive to think China and Russia weren't fully aware of the NSA's capabilities? The latest Mueller indictment suggests no. I believe that the NSA's domestic surveillance programs were an egregious mistake. However, I do not think that "awful countries" implemented domestic surveillance programs because they read the PRISM documents. Nor does it explain why Snowden leaked details of activities that were not illegal and fully within the mandate of the NSA.

by eeeuo 8y ago

bachbach 8y ago

You may correct me if you know better, but I have not seen any information that was leaked that I didn't imagine Russia or China already being very aware of. Was this information revealed to only Russia/China and kept from journalists? If so how do you know about it?

remarkEon 8y ago
"They probably already know about it" seems like a weird standard to use for answering the question of if making a particular state secret public harms the National interest.
- bachbach 8y ago
  That is an issue of reputation or PR.

Buge 8y ago

Did Snowden give is data to organizations that were hostile to the US? I thought he gave it to journalists, and let them censor as they saw fit.

na85 8y ago

>organizations that were openly hostile to American interests. Exactly which organizations are you referring to?

bitofhope 8y ago
Yea I'd like to have this elaborated on. As is the GP makes The Guardian sound like Daesh.
eeeuo 8y ago
Wikileaks.
- na85 8y ago
  Snowden went to Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras who aren't with WikiLeaks.
  - eeeuo 8y ago
    This is true, but he also was financially aided, advised and accompanied by Wikileaks every step of the way. Nonetheless, you are correct. I would edit the previous post if I could, as it's not especially critical to the overall point.
    - na85 8y ago
      >This is true, but he also was financially aided, advised and accompanied by Wikileaks every step of the way. Prove it.
      - eeeuo 8y ago
        Assange pays for Snowden's flight and hotel: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-reconstruction/behind-snowdens-hong-kong-exit-fear-and-persuasion-idUSBRE95N1CA20130624 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-reconstructi... Assange advises Snowden to move to Russia: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange-told-edward-snowdon-not-seek-asylum-in-latin-america https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange... Sarah Harrison accompanies Snowden on his flight to Russia: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/world/offering-snowden-aid-wikileaks-gets-back-in-the-game.html?r=0&pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/world/offering-snowden-ai...

dmix 8y ago

Isn't it also naive to think China and Russia weren't fully aware of the NSA's capabilities? If anything the only effect it had on intelligence agencies is it accelerated the smaller countries towards this type of mass surveillance, they learned thoroughly what was possible - beyond what you can buy at miltech trade shows. And now we see many awful countries mimicking this type of stuff now, like in Ethiopia. But otherwise for 99% of it the only one it was new and valuable to was the public. As good as the FBI/IC is at counter-intelligence if Snowden can do this stuff I'm sure a highly trained spy recruited by any top tier agency could get similar access. Also notably Snowden did not leak the really sensitive TAO stuff, which was well compartmentalized. He mostly leaked spreadsheets for the 'middle management' in NSA. I'm sure he only revealed a small portion of their top-teir capabilities. And the stuff he did leak was almost always very vague, often just a few bullet points in a spreadsheet was all we had to work with...

eeeuo 8y ago
> Isn't it also naive to think China and Russia weren't fully aware of the NSA's capabilities? The latest Mueller indictment suggests no. I believe that the NSA's domestic surveillance programs were an egregious mistake. However, I do not think that "awful countries" implemented domestic surveillance programs because they read the PRISM documents. Nor does it explain why Snowden leaked details of activities that were not illegal and fully within the mandate of the NSA.