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> if secret constitutional abuses are happening/begin to happen Have you heard about an organization called ICE that illegally locked children inside office bu

> if secret constitutional abuses are happening/begin to happen Have you heard about an organization called ICE that illegally locked children inside office buildings and strip centers?

garmaine 8y ago
I don't like it any more than you do. But was that a constitutional abuse?
- geofft 8y ago
  Yes - people (including children) are being denied their right to have counsel and a speedy trial and to not be deprived of liberty or property without due process of law. Those are human rights which the Constitution protects for all people in the US, not just rights for citizens.
  - garmaine 8y ago
    Yes they are human beings and we SHOULD provide them more rights and dignity. But, in terms of strictly legal arguments, the US constitution only affords those rights to US citizens, which these children were not.
    - geofft 8y ago
      > But, in terms of strictly legal arguments, the US constitution only affords those rights to US citizens, which these children were not. This is not true. The Constitution uses "citizen" when it means "citizen", and "person" when it means "person." The Fourteenth Amendment is a great example: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Citizens have privileges and immunities that cannot be deprived by the states, but all persons have the rights to life, liberty, property, due process, and equal protection. The Sixth Amendment also does not say "citizen" when it talks about a speedy trial and a right to counsel. See also Wong Wing v. US (1892), that illegal aliens were protected by the Fifth and Sixth Amendments when being tried under the Chinese Exclusion Act; Plyler v. Doe (1982), that the use of "person" in the Equal Protection clause definitely includes illegal aliens; Zadvydas v. Davis (2001), that due process applies to everyone on US soil, even if facing a deportation order; etc.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  YES. You cannot describe the way those children were treated as anything less than torture.

> if secret constitutional abuses are happening/begin to happen Have you heard about an organization called ICE that illegally locked children inside office buildings and strip centers?

garmaine 8y ago

I don't like it any more than you do. But was that a constitutional abuse?

geofft 8y ago
Yes - people (including children) are being denied their right to have counsel and a speedy trial and to not be deprived of liberty or property without due process of law. Those are human rights which the Constitution protects for all people in the US, not just rights for citizens.
- garmaine 8y ago
  Yes they are human beings and we SHOULD provide them more rights and dignity. But, in terms of strictly legal arguments, the US constitution only affords those rights to US citizens, which these children were not.
  - geofft 8y ago
    > But, in terms of strictly legal arguments, the US constitution only affords those rights to US citizens, which these children were not. This is not true. The Constitution uses "citizen" when it means "citizen", and "person" when it means "person." The Fourteenth Amendment is a great example: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Citizens have privileges and immunities that cannot be deprived by the states, but all persons have the rights to life, liberty, property, due process, and equal protection. The Sixth Amendment also does not say "citizen" when it talks about a speedy trial and a right to counsel. See also Wong Wing v. US (1892), that illegal aliens were protected by the Fifth and Sixth Amendments when being tried under the Chinese Exclusion Act; Plyler v. Doe (1982), that the use of "person" in the Equal Protection clause definitely includes illegal aliens; Zadvydas v. Davis (2001), that due process applies to everyone on US soil, even if facing a deportation order; etc.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
YES. You cannot describe the way those children were treated as anything less than torture.