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Current antidepressant drugs are garbage by comparison but we're stuck with them for profit and stupidity reasons. In the meantime millions who could potentiall

by mnm1 8y ago

Current antidepressant drugs are garbage by comparison but we're stuck with them for profit and stupidity reasons. In the meantime millions who could potentially be helped suffer and die. It's truly hard to justify the current situation on this research and the government's position in letting people suffer and die from such a horrific condition as depression when there might be a solution right before our eyes. Future generations will not look kindly on our stupid, barbaric, hateful society for this.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
zepto 8y ago
Yes it seems totally plausible that psychedelics can help people who had maladaptive experiences or upbringings make permanent improvements, that symptom relief drugs like antidepressants may even stand in the way of. Almost all of the work on using psychedelics to treat trauma bears this out. On the other hand, if psychedelics increases plasticity, regular use could also destabilize a mind or erode important learning. Figuring out when it is appropriate to adjust plasticity is going to be the challenge to beneficial use here. If the current ‘psychedelics cure mental illness’ craze leads to more indiscriminate use, it is going to lead to more terrible casualties before we work this out.
- cryoshon 8y ago
  >psychedelics can help people who had maladaptive experiences or upbringings make permanent improvements, that symptom relief drugs like antidepressants may even stand in the way of. this is my understanding as well. kind of like how a child would never learn how to walk on its own if the parent held it upright 100% of the time. unfortunately, i think a big problem with the current standard of care is that it prioritizes shutting the patient up -- reducing complaints regarding symptoms -- over curing the patient. there is a difference; imagine if the "real" effect antidepressants have is to make people more reluctant to communicate negative thoughts to others. the patient would still be suffering just as much, but appear to have improved. the brain is subtle enough for this to be a reality... obviously i don't believe that this example (which is totally made up) is uniformly the case. but shifting the frame to address the underlying problem of "stuck" or maladaptive neural circuitry via psychedelics could be immensely helpful for patients. psychedelics would also improve the efficacy of the other psychoactive tool we kind of think is somewhat helpful in some instances of some kinds of cases: therapy. therapy is retooling neural circuitry the hard way -- via repeated activation of alternative thought patterns of nebulous physiology in the hopes of eventually shifting the thought pattern to be adaptive rather than maladaptive. if we had a switch to flip that would enhance neural plasticity, this process would be much faster and much more effective. it would also be much more fraught with chances of inflicting damage, i'd assume.
whb07 8y ago
Are we though? Most of the time people look for a pill solution to major deficiencies in their lives. The doctor isn’t strapping you down and shoving the drugs into your mouth. Just like blaming the heroine drug epidemic at pharma and doctors, it’s weird how we never look at the individual who’s taking the pills in the first place. Prior to this epidemic we had other ones to which everyone was really trying to pin the blame on something else rather than a combination to include the individual as well. My buddy is a doctor and he’s aware of the lies/illusions patients live in. But if the doctor suggests such things like “exercise/clean up diet” for a few weeks before progressing to another step, that patient will never come back. They will also downrate the doctor on yelp like sites. So it becomes a troublesome proposition for that doctor.
- mnm1 8y ago
  Not sure what you're asking. If you're asking if we are stuck with shitty drugs that only work sometimes and require the patient to be dependent on them, I'd say yes. The legal consequences are too severe to argue otherwise. Even carrying out legitimate scientific studies is close to impossible. Of course one should lol at the individual. One should also look at society's role in promoting depression. But you're not going to fix society so you're not going to fix the individual who is made sick by that society. People need friends and contact with other people, not the isolation our society provides. They need stability in life and purpose, not the unemployment and abysmal life our society provides for most of its members. We can't fix these problems. Blaming the individual for things that are out of his control is silly. Making him dependent on a substance to function is criminal. All the while we have medicine that one doesn't need to be dependent on and can be used once in awhile for recovery but researchers are punished with jail time so that we increase the profits of the company making the drug that doesn't work. Who wouldn't rightfully be depressed in such a society and who wouldn't be angry at people who suggest that the individual's own behavior rather than the helplessness and hopelessness of our society are his fault alone (as our society does with this issue)?
- thatcat 8y ago
  Sounds like your friend decided to optimize his medical recommendations based on return business and has found reasons to blame the patients as a justification for operating on business metrics. The patients are probably doing the same thing, who needs to pay a doctor to tell them to diet and excercise?
kolinko 8y ago
If you have a neurotypical person, therapy, or psychedelics can bring a lasting result. But for a certain subset of population, with messed up serotonin pathways, antidepressants are the cure. Just like for a diabetic an insulin shot is.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  >messed up serotonin pathways, antidepressants are the cure. Just like for a diabetic an insulin shot is. We should be careful when saying psychiatry is "just like" biological science, it's not. "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances While it's true many people have experienced positive results with antidepressants (many have with placebos as well), "messed up serotonin pathways" and "chemical imbalances" are marketing slogans, not scientific facts.
- adrice727 8y ago
  I read "Lost Connections" by Johann Hari[1] a couple weeks ago. He spends much of the first section on the research and history of antidepressants. One particularly interesting thing is that drugs that decrease serotonin levels are just as effective as those that increase serotonin. The same goes for drugs that alter levels of dopamine. It seems that a great majority of the effectiveness of antidepressants comes from the placebo effect, and the remainder is somewhat of a mystery. Also, doesn't cure imply something that is permanent and not just a temporary measure? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/17/lost-connections-johann-hari-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/17/lost-connectio...
  - llamaz 8y ago
    I don't know much about human biology, but if the relationship between dopamine/seratonin and depression/anxiety is more non-linear than linear, then the fact that both increasing and decreasing dopamine/seratonin is effective can make perfect sense. This sort of relationship - where small changes shift an equllibrium and result in a qualitative change - are common in nature and a forteriori human physiology.

by mnm1 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

zepto 8y ago

Yes it seems totally plausible that psychedelics can help people who had maladaptive experiences or upbringings make permanent improvements, that symptom relief drugs like antidepressants may even stand in the way of. Almost all of the work on using psychedelics to treat trauma bears this out. On the other hand, if psychedelics increases plasticity, regular use could also destabilize a mind or erode important learning. Figuring out when it is appropriate to adjust plasticity is going to be the challenge to beneficial use here. If the current ‘psychedelics cure mental illness’ craze leads to more indiscriminate use, it is going to lead to more terrible casualties before we work this out.

cryoshon 8y ago
>psychedelics can help people who had maladaptive experiences or upbringings make permanent improvements, that symptom relief drugs like antidepressants may even stand in the way of. this is my understanding as well. kind of like how a child would never learn how to walk on its own if the parent held it upright 100% of the time. unfortunately, i think a big problem with the current standard of care is that it prioritizes shutting the patient up -- reducing complaints regarding symptoms -- over curing the patient. there is a difference; imagine if the "real" effect antidepressants have is to make people more reluctant to communicate negative thoughts to others. the patient would still be suffering just as much, but appear to have improved. the brain is subtle enough for this to be a reality... obviously i don't believe that this example (which is totally made up) is uniformly the case. but shifting the frame to address the underlying problem of "stuck" or maladaptive neural circuitry via psychedelics could be immensely helpful for patients. psychedelics would also improve the efficacy of the other psychoactive tool we kind of think is somewhat helpful in some instances of some kinds of cases: therapy. therapy is retooling neural circuitry the hard way -- via repeated activation of alternative thought patterns of nebulous physiology in the hopes of eventually shifting the thought pattern to be adaptive rather than maladaptive. if we had a switch to flip that would enhance neural plasticity, this process would be much faster and much more effective. it would also be much more fraught with chances of inflicting damage, i'd assume.

whb07 8y ago

Are we though? Most of the time people look for a pill solution to major deficiencies in their lives. The doctor isn’t strapping you down and shoving the drugs into your mouth. Just like blaming the heroine drug epidemic at pharma and doctors, it’s weird how we never look at the individual who’s taking the pills in the first place. Prior to this epidemic we had other ones to which everyone was really trying to pin the blame on something else rather than a combination to include the individual as well. My buddy is a doctor and he’s aware of the lies/illusions patients live in. But if the doctor suggests such things like “exercise/clean up diet” for a few weeks before progressing to another step, that patient will never come back. They will also downrate the doctor on yelp like sites. So it becomes a troublesome proposition for that doctor.

mnm1 8y ago
Not sure what you're asking. If you're asking if we are stuck with shitty drugs that only work sometimes and require the patient to be dependent on them, I'd say yes. The legal consequences are too severe to argue otherwise. Even carrying out legitimate scientific studies is close to impossible. Of course one should lol at the individual. One should also look at society's role in promoting depression. But you're not going to fix society so you're not going to fix the individual who is made sick by that society. People need friends and contact with other people, not the isolation our society provides. They need stability in life and purpose, not the unemployment and abysmal life our society provides for most of its members. We can't fix these problems. Blaming the individual for things that are out of his control is silly. Making him dependent on a substance to function is criminal. All the while we have medicine that one doesn't need to be dependent on and can be used once in awhile for recovery but researchers are punished with jail time so that we increase the profits of the company making the drug that doesn't work. Who wouldn't rightfully be depressed in such a society and who wouldn't be angry at people who suggest that the individual's own behavior rather than the helplessness and hopelessness of our society are his fault alone (as our society does with this issue)?
thatcat 8y ago
Sounds like your friend decided to optimize his medical recommendations based on return business and has found reasons to blame the patients as a justification for operating on business metrics. The patients are probably doing the same thing, who needs to pay a doctor to tell them to diet and excercise?

kolinko 8y ago

If you have a neurotypical person, therapy, or psychedelics can bring a lasting result. But for a certain subset of population, with messed up serotonin pathways, antidepressants are the cure. Just like for a diabetic an insulin shot is.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
>messed up serotonin pathways, antidepressants are the cure. Just like for a diabetic an insulin shot is. We should be careful when saying psychiatry is "just like" biological science, it's not. "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances While it's true many people have experienced positive results with antidepressants (many have with placebos as well), "messed up serotonin pathways" and "chemical imbalances" are marketing slogans, not scientific facts.
adrice727 8y ago
I read "Lost Connections" by Johann Hari[1] a couple weeks ago. He spends much of the first section on the research and history of antidepressants. One particularly interesting thing is that drugs that decrease serotonin levels are just as effective as those that increase serotonin. The same goes for drugs that alter levels of dopamine. It seems that a great majority of the effectiveness of antidepressants comes from the placebo effect, and the remainder is somewhat of a mystery. Also, doesn't cure imply something that is permanent and not just a temporary measure? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/17/lost-connections-johann-hari-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/17/lost-connectio...
- llamaz 8y ago
  I don't know much about human biology, but if the relationship between dopamine/seratonin and depression/anxiety is more non-linear than linear, then the fact that both increasing and decreasing dopamine/seratonin is effective can make perfect sense. This sort of relationship - where small changes shift an equllibrium and result in a qualitative change - are common in nature and a forteriori human physiology.