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> I don't disagree that Kubernetes is not positioned to be a replacement for Borg Good. Because that was my point, but the verbiage “don’t disagree” says a lot

> I don't disagree that Kubernetes is not positioned to be a replacement for Borg Good. Because that was my point, but the verbiage “don’t disagree” says a lot. We agree, except for the timeline. We will all be dead before Borg is replaced with Kubernetes. You can take that to the bank. Kinda weird to fire up a throwaway, presumably to conceal your Google credentials, then attack a Xoogler who used to work on Borg SRE (alongside sjh under Peter Dahl, and long enough my NDA has long since lapsed) and has run Kubernetes since it was able to OOM as I described, for spreading FUD. The term FUD implies that I don’t know what I’m talking about and I’m making shit up, while I’m one of the few people, including presumably you, who can actually coherently comment on both. It can only span multiple clouds now because other clouds had to ship Kubernetes. Remember the timeline: hello world, we made a container thing. Now we offer it as a service. Now Amazon does too. Oh, we are now multicloud. Your rebuttals are quite disingenuous, and casting them with a mocking aspersion doesn’t sell your point. It makes you come across nothing like you intend. Get back on your real username and stop being offended I criticized Kubernetes. I know I’m one of the few who does, but there are legitimate concerns, and sharing them toward a “why Borg isn’t going anywhere” point is a weird hill for you to die on.

throwawaykbfud 8y ago
>Good. Because that was my point. Fair enough, but you said a whole lot of other crap that is very much misleading in my opinion, and I was addressing all of that. >It can only span multiple clouds now because other clouds had to ship Kubernetes See, this is the kind of thing that makes me treat this as FUD rather than just criticism. I was running Kubernetes on AWS long before Amazon offered a service for it. If Kubernetes wasn't open source and instead each cloud provider came up with their own implementation, would that have been better? >Get back on your real username No thanks. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why.
- jsmthrowaway 8y ago
  I’m talking about competitors to GKE, which is the entire thesis of that point and that you refuse to acknowledge, which is why you’re knee jerking FUD. I’m a solo developer. I make a Kubernetes app. Do I think Kubernetes is great if I have to build a CloudFormation thing to spin up all of its infrastructure and run it myself, or would I rather pay big company to do it? The latter. GKE. EKS/etc. They exist for that use case because that’s where the lock in happens. Now you’re a Kubernetes deployable and too dug in to get off. For a while, your only option was GKE or (God help you, at first) running it yourself. Now other vendors have stepped up to compete, which is the exact situation Google wanted. They shook out the Kubernetes issues with the early adopters with ops experience, then went after pure developers, and had first mover advantage on that customer until the others were forced to respond. I wish I could tell you how many teams I’ve consulted with who when I say “where are we deploying?” immediately say Kubernetes on GKE without a second thought. That is what Google wanted. This doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out, but if you work on Kubernetes I wouldn’t expect you to know this strategy firsthand. It would come from Diane or her people. You’re just having a hootin’ and hollerin’ grand old time building some open source software with a foundation (ooo! So OpenStack!) and mindshare and all the cool kids surrendering their startup to go all in on Kubernetes. Meanwhile, you’re supported by Google, and in fact were conceptualized, to drive sales to Google Cloud. Sorry. Did you ever ask yourself what the higher level point of Kubernetes is? Like, why throw an entire team on shipping an entire new infrastructure category just to open source it? To make operations better for the industry? Google competes on operations. To use public company capital to chase a hobby? Think about the leadership decision to initiate Kubernetes, and why it was made. > but you said a whole lot of other crap that is very much misleading in my opinion The entire comment was quite clearly in support of Google’s decision calculus to not replace Borg. Your rebuttals are honestly more misleading, in my opinion, than my points, because you’re personally wrapped up in it and that’s coming across.
  - throwawaykbfud 8y ago
    >Do I think Kubernetes is great if I have to build a CloudFormation thing to spin up all of its infrastructure and run it myself, Yes. >or would I rather pay big company to do it? Also yes. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Come on, you've used Borg. You wanna volunteer to going back to just using machines and VMs by hand, or worse, wiring up a complex and unreadable (Ansible|SaltStack|Chef|Puppet) playbook to set everything up? No. This is why in the early days I was indeed running Kubernetes on AWS, by hand. As the tooling improved it only got better. I honestly wanted to have alternative choices, but Docker continually missed the point with Swarm and I just gave up on it. >Your rebuttals are honestly more misleading, in my opinion, than my points, because you’re personally wrapped up in it and that’s coming across. You are projecting wildly on this one.
davidopp__ 8y ago
> It can only span multiple clouds now because other clouds had to ship Kubernetes. This isn't true. People were running open-source Kubernetes on AWS and Azure before either provider had a hosted Kubernetes service. In fact back when GKE was the only hosted Kubernetes service, more companies were running Kubernetes on non-Google platforms than on GCP (https://www.cncf.io/blog/2017/12/06/cloud-native-technologies-scaling-production-applications/ https://www.cncf.io/blog/2017/12/06/cloud-native-technologie...). [Disclaimer: I work on Kubernetes/GKE at Google.]
jmillikin 8y ago
> Kinda weird to fire up a throwaway, presumably to conceal > your Google credentials, then attack a Xoogler who used to > work on Borg SRE (alongside sjh under Peter Dahl, and long > enough my NDA has long since lapsed) That's an interesting way to phrase it. I also worked on Borg SRE with Seth under Peter (for six years), and I don't remember anyone else with the same initials as me being present during that time. Just in case I was forgetting someone, I checked the Borg paper (https://storage.googleapis.com/pub-tools-public-publication-data/pdf/43438.pdf https://storage.googleapis.com/pub-tools-public-publication-...) for the SRE credits section -- I remember all of them, but none had your ... personality. Luckily, the very first hit for a search of [[ jsmthrowaway site:news.ycombinator.com ]] is your old comment from 2013 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6750805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6750805), in which you discuss being terminated after two months due to failing a background check. That explains why I couldn't remember you, but it doesn't explain why you think two months of reading "Borg 101" tutorials has given you meaningful insight into which parts of the Kubernetes implementation are difficult to scale.
- jsmthrowaway 8y ago
  I love when a thread has been dead for hours and the roaches come out of the woodwork to begin turning a conversation personal because it was linked somewhere, and I obviously and emphatically hit a nerve by criticizing something you hold dear. That’s the only reason I’m still refreshing it at this point. Looking me up (Lord have mercy) and swiping at me as you have here tells me volumes more about you than the effect you intended. What are you expecting? It really says something about Valley culture that I take a swing at Kubernetes, of all bloody things, not gender equality, not politics, not the worth of your contributions to society such as they are, cluster orchestration software, and the absolute worst of you comes out. No factual content, just your smug satisfaction after trying to take an Internet username down a peg. You made the world a better place today. If I cared about you, I might find the whole thing rather sad. I suspect you already do, or will soon, so I need not expend the effort. Don’t worry, I remember you. If you think you have a handle on my personality from reading disdain I vent on Hacker News, you’re much dumber than I remember, which is disappointing given the respect I have for what little I know of your work. Shame, really.

throwawaykbfud 8y ago

>Good. Because that was my point. Fair enough, but you said a whole lot of other crap that is very much misleading in my opinion, and I was addressing all of that. >It can only span multiple clouds now because other clouds had to ship Kubernetes See, this is the kind of thing that makes me treat this as FUD rather than just criticism. I was running Kubernetes on AWS long before Amazon offered a service for it. If Kubernetes wasn't open source and instead each cloud provider came up with their own implementation, would that have been better? >Get back on your real username No thanks. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why.

jsmthrowaway 8y ago
I’m talking about competitors to GKE, which is the entire thesis of that point and that you refuse to acknowledge, which is why you’re knee jerking FUD. I’m a solo developer. I make a Kubernetes app. Do I think Kubernetes is great if I have to build a CloudFormation thing to spin up all of its infrastructure and run it myself, or would I rather pay big company to do it? The latter. GKE. EKS/etc. They exist for that use case because that’s where the lock in happens. Now you’re a Kubernetes deployable and too dug in to get off. For a while, your only option was GKE or (God help you, at first) running it yourself. Now other vendors have stepped up to compete, which is the exact situation Google wanted. They shook out the Kubernetes issues with the early adopters with ops experience, then went after pure developers, and had first mover advantage on that customer until the others were forced to respond. I wish I could tell you how many teams I’ve consulted with who when I say “where are we deploying?” immediately say Kubernetes on GKE without a second thought. That is what Google wanted. This doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out, but if you work on Kubernetes I wouldn’t expect you to know this strategy firsthand. It would come from Diane or her people. You’re just having a hootin’ and hollerin’ grand old time building some open source software with a foundation (ooo! So OpenStack!) and mindshare and all the cool kids surrendering their startup to go all in on Kubernetes. Meanwhile, you’re supported by Google, and in fact were conceptualized, to drive sales to Google Cloud. Sorry. Did you ever ask yourself what the higher level point of Kubernetes is? Like, why throw an entire team on shipping an entire new infrastructure category just to open source it? To make operations better for the industry? Google competes on operations. To use public company capital to chase a hobby? Think about the leadership decision to initiate Kubernetes, and why it was made. > but you said a whole lot of other crap that is very much misleading in my opinion The entire comment was quite clearly in support of Google’s decision calculus to not replace Borg. Your rebuttals are honestly more misleading, in my opinion, than my points, because you’re personally wrapped up in it and that’s coming across.
- throwawaykbfud 8y ago
  >Do I think Kubernetes is great if I have to build a CloudFormation thing to spin up all of its infrastructure and run it myself, Yes. >or would I rather pay big company to do it? Also yes. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Come on, you've used Borg. You wanna volunteer to going back to just using machines and VMs by hand, or worse, wiring up a complex and unreadable (Ansible|SaltStack|Chef|Puppet) playbook to set everything up? No. This is why in the early days I was indeed running Kubernetes on AWS, by hand. As the tooling improved it only got better. I honestly wanted to have alternative choices, but Docker continually missed the point with Swarm and I just gave up on it. >Your rebuttals are honestly more misleading, in my opinion, than my points, because you’re personally wrapped up in it and that’s coming across. You are projecting wildly on this one.

davidopp__ 8y ago

> It can only span multiple clouds now because other clouds had to ship Kubernetes. This isn't true. People were running open-source Kubernetes on AWS and Azure before either provider had a hosted Kubernetes service. In fact back when GKE was the only hosted Kubernetes service, more companies were running Kubernetes on non-Google platforms than on GCP (https://www.cncf.io/blog/2017/12/06/cloud-native-technologies-scaling-production-applications/ https://www.cncf.io/blog/2017/12/06/cloud-native-technologie...). [Disclaimer: I work on Kubernetes/GKE at Google.]

jmillikin 8y ago

> Kinda weird to fire up a throwaway, presumably to conceal > your Google credentials, then attack a Xoogler who used to > work on Borg SRE (alongside sjh under Peter Dahl, and long > enough my NDA has long since lapsed) That's an interesting way to phrase it. I also worked on Borg SRE with Seth under Peter (for six years), and I don't remember anyone else with the same initials as me being present during that time. Just in case I was forgetting someone, I checked the Borg paper (https://storage.googleapis.com/pub-tools-public-publication-data/pdf/43438.pdf https://storage.googleapis.com/pub-tools-public-publication-...) for the SRE credits section -- I remember all of them, but none had your ... personality. Luckily, the very first hit for a search of [[ jsmthrowaway site:news.ycombinator.com ]] is your old comment from 2013 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6750805 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6750805), in which you discuss being terminated after two months due to failing a background check. That explains why I couldn't remember you, but it doesn't explain why you think two months of reading "Borg 101" tutorials has given you meaningful insight into which parts of the Kubernetes implementation are difficult to scale.

jsmthrowaway 8y ago
I love when a thread has been dead for hours and the roaches come out of the woodwork to begin turning a conversation personal because it was linked somewhere, and I obviously and emphatically hit a nerve by criticizing something you hold dear. That’s the only reason I’m still refreshing it at this point. Looking me up (Lord have mercy) and swiping at me as you have here tells me volumes more about you than the effect you intended. What are you expecting? It really says something about Valley culture that I take a swing at Kubernetes, of all bloody things, not gender equality, not politics, not the worth of your contributions to society such as they are, cluster orchestration software, and the absolute worst of you comes out. No factual content, just your smug satisfaction after trying to take an Internet username down a peg. You made the world a better place today. If I cared about you, I might find the whole thing rather sad. I suspect you already do, or will soon, so I need not expend the effort. Don’t worry, I remember you. If you think you have a handle on my personality from reading disdain I vent on Hacker News, you’re much dumber than I remember, which is disappointing given the respect I have for what little I know of your work. Shame, really.