4 ms·

There's something interesting at play here — clearly, they're selling these shoes to enthusiasts, rather than just targeting elite athletes. While I can see a

by pdpi 8y ago

There's something interesting at play here — clearly, they're selling these shoes to enthusiasts, rather than just targeting elite athletes. While I can see a competitive athlete reaching for whatever legal means they can to try and buy themselves a victory or podium or some other high-profile result that buys them sponsorships, there's just no good reason why amateur runners should care — you don't magically become a fitter, better runner by posting faster numbers through fancier shoes. Selling people on to the idea that they _should_ care about this is, depending on perspective marketing at either its finest or at its worst.

mulletbum 8y ago
This isn't really stated or testing, but one of my biggest issues with running is how much pain I feel on my joints. I actually find it really enjoyable to run through the woods with my dog, but my knees just get mad. If these shoes relieved just a tiny bit of that pain I would find them almost worth it. Not saying one should buy an expensive pair of shoes, but if it was the case, maybe the shoes don't just make you run better, but actually walk better and more safe?
- whitepoplar 8y ago
  I could never understand why so many people run as a sport, when nearly all runners eventually develop joint problems, many requiring knee replacements (which you supposedly can't run on).
  - loeg 8y ago
    This oft-repeated claim is factually inaccurate. Runners and former runners, as a population, have better knees than non-runners.[0] [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27333572 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27333572
    - JacobJans 8y ago
      I wouldn't draw very many conclusions from that study. The study itself says: > This was an observational study where people chose whether or not they wanted to run; therefore there is always the possibility that people stopped running because they had knee pain. That's a pretty big flaw in their study.
      - thr0awaz 8y ago
        knee pain isn't the same as joint problems. All runners who run regularly will eventually develop knee or ankle pain. It's sort of normal for semi-serious distance runners to own a pair of crutches. I'm not saying all of them, but, if you need a pair of crutches, ask your friends who run and one of them will have a pair. But, your knee can hurt for a while without it turning into joint problems. > This was an observational study where people chose whether or not they wanted to run; therefore there is always the possibility that people stopped running because they had knee pain. As such, we cannot comment upon the influence of compulsory running on overall knee health. so... forced running might cause osteoarthritis. But, if you feel like going for a run and it doesn't hurt, it's not going to cause joint problems. > Our study findings add to the existing literature by including a large sample within which we were able to assess the influence of running in people who participated in running for shorter amounts of time and perhaps stopped running in a cohort that had high quality of assessments of symptoms and standardized radiographs. We found that runners in this group were not at a higher risk for symptomatic knee OA.
        gamblor956 8y ago
        That's weird...I know hundreds of runners ranging from their teens to their 70s and only two of us own crutches. I have a pair because my brother broke his knee playing basketball and left them at my place. Another runner has a pair because a car hit her while she was biking and broke her leg.
        thr0awaz 8y ago
        Weird. Must just be the people I know then? Overuse injuries got a bunch of people I knew. They'd use crutches to speed recovery up a bit, or to get around if it was bad enough.
- pdpi 8y ago
  That's a perfectly legitimate concern, and would be a great reason to get something like this if you can afford it — but that's not how they're selling these shoes. Instead, they're focusing on the athletic performance aspect, to the point that, near as I can tell, they're outright fanning the flames of controversy around the idea that these shoes are unfairly fast.
- darpa_escapee 8y ago
  Joint damage and pain from running is real, and if it's a concern you have, you might want to look into speaking with a professional in that space. There are exercises, stretches and techniques you can learn, as well as products you can buy that you aren't going to find at a Foot Locker.
- thr0awaz 8y ago
  If your knees hurt it's either a form problem (you're likely overstriding or lifting your knees too high and slamming your feet into the ground), or a shoe problem (shoes are only good for 300-600 miles of running, assuming you never wear them walking and that you let them bounce back at least overnight after a run, or you're wearing like... motion control and heavily padded shoes when you need less stability or less padding, or vice versa) Other options are bad knees (unlikely, honestly. Not many people have knees that are so genuinely shot that they can't run, unless they're former paratroopers or are very years old) Or, if you're carrying a lot of extra weight (backpack full of water? I don't know, people do whatever they do), that'll hurt. Since you're talking about running in the woods, it's almost definitely not the sidewalk, but, some people need to build up their muscles and tendons by going from softer surfaces (not so soft like sand, but grass) to ashphalt, to concrete.
  - justinator 8y ago
    Don't forget lack of ankle mobility. If the ankle can't do the job, the knee tries to, and that doesn't work all that well.
- ahnick 8y ago
  This is why I use an elliptical machine. (specifically the Octane Fitness Q47) Zero impact to joints. The Octane Fitness machines are great b/c they are very close to actual running. In fact from the looks of it the Zero Runner may be exactly like running now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=xUIIsjX7mJg https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=xUIIsjX7mJg
colechristensen 8y ago
If I was actually using my legs to move places I wanted to be instead of chasing "fitness" I'd be pretty interested in 4% gains in efficiency.
avoutthere 8y ago
As one who has watched the golf equipment market for some time, I can tell you that many are willing to spend money for incremental improvement rather than spend time to get better through practice.
- DisruptiveDave 8y ago
  perceived incremental improvement. in golf especially, it's way easier to blame the equipment than yourself. doesn't matter the actual result. it just feels like you're making a move towards progression when you change your tools.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    Hell, it's often a step backwards. A lot of mid-handicappers prematurely upgrade to equipment that's only actually beneficial in the hands of an excellent player.
- ballenf 8y ago
  There's also the psychological aspect of training harder because you just bought new expensive equipment. You feel guilty over wasting the purchase, letting it sit idle or not investing more time to get your money worth.
izzydata 8y ago
What if I'm in a life or death running situation where seconds matter?
dogma1138 8y ago
Depends on “how” the shoe makes you run faster if it’s by improving the grip and gate then yes it can make you fitter or at least reduce the chance of injury. People that run in shoes not fit for running or in wore down shoes put their health at risk as well as making it a hell of a lot harder for themselves. Also there is a psychological factor if you feel that you are improving you might be more likely to keep running instead of giving up.
gordon_freeman 8y ago
my question is: do amateur runners even buy $250 shoes? I don't think they do spend that much money on a Running Shoe at that stage. Also, how can this be not good marketing if the Shoes does exactly what the marketing message tries to portray?
- wilsonnb2 8y ago
  "Amateur runners" is an extremely broad collection of people. Everyone from someone training for their first charity 5K to those who run multiple marathons a year can fall into this category. Some amateur runners definitely spend $250 on shoes, either because they have so much money that $250 is basically the same as $70 to them or because they are very serious amateurs.
- adrianmonk 8y ago
  Typical running shoes are about $100/pair. In some cases, more like $125 or even $150. Not infrequently, you can find them on sale, but that's the ballpark for the regular price. Also, it's not uncommon for a runner to spend $50 per pair of shorts and $30 on a shirt, and you need about 5 of each if you train for a marathon because you're going to be running 5 days a week. Not to mention socks. Many if not most runners these days also have a GPS watch, and those usually go for $200 for a basic model. And then of course, a lot of runners travel to other cities to run marathons. So you might spend $250 on airfare and another $250 on staying in a hotel the night before and after the race. Of course, the race itself charges a fee (lots of logistics to close 26.2 miles of road, time people, provide food, etc.), which is typically around $100 to $150. So spending an extra $150 on a pair of shoes for the race isn't really going to radically alter the total budget.
- post_break 8y ago
  Runners usually have multiple pairs of running shoes. The foam compresses from running so if you run every day, and you use the same shoe, the foam does not rebound and you can destroy the shoe. Three pairs is usually the sweet spot. Running shoes at like $200 a pair on not uncommon, and then multiply that by 3.
- justinator 8y ago
llimllib 8y ago
> there's just no good reason why amateur runners should care Qualifying for marathons is a good reason to care. If these shoes could make the difference between me qualifying for Boston, and me not qualifying for Boston (or same for NYC, Tokyo, London, etc etc), $250 would be cheap if that's a big goal for me. edit: really, $130 or so since my shoes _already_ cost $120
DoreenMichele 8y ago
clearly, they're selling these shoes to enthusiasts, rather than just targeting elite athletes. It seems to me that enthusiasts are the perfect market for it. People with serious hobbies are often fairly comfortably well off and also may have neither the time nor ambition to train harder. Poor people often can't afford to be enthusiasts. They are too busy scrambling to survive and too tired to do anything other than stare at the TV or something like that when they aren't desperately trying to make their life work. Given that you can apparently make money playing video games by grinding for items other people value and selling them for real money to players who have more money than time, I don't see why you couldn't sell pricey shoes to running enthusiasts.
jdietrich 8y ago
It's nothing new in the cycling industry. Lots of recreational cyclists ride high-end race bikes. It's not all that unusual to see an age-group triathlete on a $10,000 TT bike. If you're enthusiastic about something, I think it's quite natural to want to do it to the best of your ability. It's also quite natural to covet shiny toys. You can't buy youth or good genes, but you can buy a little bit of speed, a little bit of prestige, a little bit of the aura that surrounds professional athletes.
paulcole 8y ago
New rules say that athletes can't wear shoes not available to the general public: > “Any type of shoe used [in competition] must be reasonably available to all in the spirit of the universality of athletics.” https://www.outsideonline.com/2325366/track-and-field-iaaf-shoe-prototypes https://www.outsideonline.com/2325366/track-and-field-iaaf-s...
jmull 8y ago
Well, many people do care. You don't have to be elite to want to run faster. Keep in mind there seems to be no good reason to exercise more than 30 min 3-4 times a week, but many runners choose to do a lot more than that. For that matter, there's no good reason for most of the things people buy or time they spend on the hobbies and other leisure activities they pursue. I can assure you, they will not need to focus their marketing efforts on convincing people to care about going faster. A great number of amateur runners already do. (Not all, different runners are motivated by different things.)
rajacombinator 8y ago
Maximizing speed is a legitimate desirable outcome, not pure marketing. It doesn’t have to be all about mastering the zen of running.

by pdpi 8y ago

mulletbum 8y ago

This isn't really stated or testing, but one of my biggest issues with running is how much pain I feel on my joints. I actually find it really enjoyable to run through the woods with my dog, but my knees just get mad. If these shoes relieved just a tiny bit of that pain I would find them almost worth it. Not saying one should buy an expensive pair of shoes, but if it was the case, maybe the shoes don't just make you run better, but actually walk better and more safe?

whitepoplar 8y ago
I could never understand why so many people run as a sport, when nearly all runners eventually develop joint problems, many requiring knee replacements (which you supposedly can't run on).
- loeg 8y ago
  This oft-repeated claim is factually inaccurate. Runners and former runners, as a population, have better knees than non-runners.[0] [0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27333572 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27333572
  - JacobJans 8y ago
    I wouldn't draw very many conclusions from that study. The study itself says: > This was an observational study where people chose whether or not they wanted to run; therefore there is always the possibility that people stopped running because they had knee pain. That's a pretty big flaw in their study.
    - thr0awaz 8y ago
      knee pain isn't the same as joint problems. All runners who run regularly will eventually develop knee or ankle pain. It's sort of normal for semi-serious distance runners to own a pair of crutches. I'm not saying all of them, but, if you need a pair of crutches, ask your friends who run and one of them will have a pair. But, your knee can hurt for a while without it turning into joint problems. > This was an observational study where people chose whether or not they wanted to run; therefore there is always the possibility that people stopped running because they had knee pain. As such, we cannot comment upon the influence of compulsory running on overall knee health. so... forced running might cause osteoarthritis. But, if you feel like going for a run and it doesn't hurt, it's not going to cause joint problems. > Our study findings add to the existing literature by including a large sample within which we were able to assess the influence of running in people who participated in running for shorter amounts of time and perhaps stopped running in a cohort that had high quality of assessments of symptoms and standardized radiographs. We found that runners in this group were not at a higher risk for symptomatic knee OA.
      - gamblor956 8y ago
        That's weird...I know hundreds of runners ranging from their teens to their 70s and only two of us own crutches. I have a pair because my brother broke his knee playing basketball and left them at my place. Another runner has a pair because a car hit her while she was biking and broke her leg.
        thr0awaz 8y ago
        Weird. Must just be the people I know then? Overuse injuries got a bunch of people I knew. They'd use crutches to speed recovery up a bit, or to get around if it was bad enough.
pdpi 8y ago
That's a perfectly legitimate concern, and would be a great reason to get something like this if you can afford it — but that's not how they're selling these shoes. Instead, they're focusing on the athletic performance aspect, to the point that, near as I can tell, they're outright fanning the flames of controversy around the idea that these shoes are unfairly fast.
darpa_escapee 8y ago
Joint damage and pain from running is real, and if it's a concern you have, you might want to look into speaking with a professional in that space. There are exercises, stretches and techniques you can learn, as well as products you can buy that you aren't going to find at a Foot Locker.
thr0awaz 8y ago
If your knees hurt it's either a form problem (you're likely overstriding or lifting your knees too high and slamming your feet into the ground), or a shoe problem (shoes are only good for 300-600 miles of running, assuming you never wear them walking and that you let them bounce back at least overnight after a run, or you're wearing like... motion control and heavily padded shoes when you need less stability or less padding, or vice versa) Other options are bad knees (unlikely, honestly. Not many people have knees that are so genuinely shot that they can't run, unless they're former paratroopers or are very years old) Or, if you're carrying a lot of extra weight (backpack full of water? I don't know, people do whatever they do), that'll hurt. Since you're talking about running in the woods, it's almost definitely not the sidewalk, but, some people need to build up their muscles and tendons by going from softer surfaces (not so soft like sand, but grass) to ashphalt, to concrete.
- justinator 8y ago
  Don't forget lack of ankle mobility. If the ankle can't do the job, the knee tries to, and that doesn't work all that well.
ahnick 8y ago
This is why I use an elliptical machine. (specifically the Octane Fitness Q47) Zero impact to joints. The Octane Fitness machines are great b/c they are very close to actual running. In fact from the looks of it the Zero Runner may be exactly like running now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=xUIIsjX7mJg https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=xUIIsjX7mJg

colechristensen 8y ago

If I was actually using my legs to move places I wanted to be instead of chasing "fitness" I'd be pretty interested in 4% gains in efficiency.

avoutthere 8y ago

As one who has watched the golf equipment market for some time, I can tell you that many are willing to spend money for incremental improvement rather than spend time to get better through practice.

DisruptiveDave 8y ago
perceived incremental improvement. in golf especially, it's way easier to blame the equipment than yourself. doesn't matter the actual result. it just feels like you're making a move towards progression when you change your tools.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  Hell, it's often a step backwards. A lot of mid-handicappers prematurely upgrade to equipment that's only actually beneficial in the hands of an excellent player.
ballenf 8y ago
There's also the psychological aspect of training harder because you just bought new expensive equipment. You feel guilty over wasting the purchase, letting it sit idle or not investing more time to get your money worth.

izzydata 8y ago

What if I'm in a life or death running situation where seconds matter?

dogma1138 8y ago

Depends on “how” the shoe makes you run faster if it’s by improving the grip and gate then yes it can make you fitter or at least reduce the chance of injury. People that run in shoes not fit for running or in wore down shoes put their health at risk as well as making it a hell of a lot harder for themselves. Also there is a psychological factor if you feel that you are improving you might be more likely to keep running instead of giving up.

gordon_freeman 8y ago

my question is: do amateur runners even buy $250 shoes? I don't think they do spend that much money on a Running Shoe at that stage. Also, how can this be not good marketing if the Shoes does exactly what the marketing message tries to portray?

wilsonnb2 8y ago
"Amateur runners" is an extremely broad collection of people. Everyone from someone training for their first charity 5K to those who run multiple marathons a year can fall into this category. Some amateur runners definitely spend $250 on shoes, either because they have so much money that $250 is basically the same as $70 to them or because they are very serious amateurs.
adrianmonk 8y ago
Typical running shoes are about $100/pair. In some cases, more like $125 or even $150. Not infrequently, you can find them on sale, but that's the ballpark for the regular price. Also, it's not uncommon for a runner to spend $50 per pair of shorts and $30 on a shirt, and you need about 5 of each if you train for a marathon because you're going to be running 5 days a week. Not to mention socks. Many if not most runners these days also have a GPS watch, and those usually go for $200 for a basic model. And then of course, a lot of runners travel to other cities to run marathons. So you might spend $250 on airfare and another $250 on staying in a hotel the night before and after the race. Of course, the race itself charges a fee (lots of logistics to close 26.2 miles of road, time people, provide food, etc.), which is typically around $100 to $150. So spending an extra $150 on a pair of shoes for the race isn't really going to radically alter the total budget.
post_break 8y ago
Runners usually have multiple pairs of running shoes. The foam compresses from running so if you run every day, and you use the same shoe, the foam does not rebound and you can destroy the shoe. Three pairs is usually the sweet spot. Running shoes at like $200 a pair on not uncommon, and then multiply that by 3.
justinator 8y ago

llimllib 8y ago

> there's just no good reason why amateur runners should care Qualifying for marathons is a good reason to care. If these shoes could make the difference between me qualifying for Boston, and me not qualifying for Boston (or same for NYC, Tokyo, London, etc etc), $250 would be cheap if that's a big goal for me. edit: really, $130 or so since my shoes _already_ cost $120

DoreenMichele 8y ago

clearly, they're selling these shoes to enthusiasts, rather than just targeting elite athletes. It seems to me that enthusiasts are the perfect market for it. People with serious hobbies are often fairly comfortably well off and also may have neither the time nor ambition to train harder. Poor people often can't afford to be enthusiasts. They are too busy scrambling to survive and too tired to do anything other than stare at the TV or something like that when they aren't desperately trying to make their life work. Given that you can apparently make money playing video games by grinding for items other people value and selling them for real money to players who have more money than time, I don't see why you couldn't sell pricey shoes to running enthusiasts.

jdietrich 8y ago

It's nothing new in the cycling industry. Lots of recreational cyclists ride high-end race bikes. It's not all that unusual to see an age-group triathlete on a $10,000 TT bike. If you're enthusiastic about something, I think it's quite natural to want to do it to the best of your ability. It's also quite natural to covet shiny toys. You can't buy youth or good genes, but you can buy a little bit of speed, a little bit of prestige, a little bit of the aura that surrounds professional athletes.

paulcole 8y ago

New rules say that athletes can't wear shoes not available to the general public: > “Any type of shoe used [in competition] must be reasonably available to all in the spirit of the universality of athletics.” https://www.outsideonline.com/2325366/track-and-field-iaaf-shoe-prototypes https://www.outsideonline.com/2325366/track-and-field-iaaf-s...

jmull 8y ago

Well, many people do care. You don't have to be elite to want to run faster. Keep in mind there seems to be no good reason to exercise more than 30 min 3-4 times a week, but many runners choose to do a lot more than that. For that matter, there's no good reason for most of the things people buy or time they spend on the hobbies and other leisure activities they pursue. I can assure you, they will not need to focus their marketing efforts on convincing people to care about going faster. A great number of amateur runners already do. (Not all, different runners are motivated by different things.)

rajacombinator 8y ago

Maximizing speed is a legitimate desirable outcome, not pure marketing. It doesn’t have to be all about mastering the zen of running.