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>Why would someone pay €75 million to launch 5 tonnes to GTO on the Ariane 6 when they can spend $62 million and get an extra 3.3 tonnes of capacity on the Falc

>Why would someone pay €75 million to launch 5 tonnes to GTO on the Ariane 6 when they can spend $62 million and get an extra 3.3 tonnes of capacity on the Falcon 9? Because their satellite is, perhaps, 3 tonnes, allowing them to fly in the upper berth for €45 million while another customer pays the rest in the lower berth. Capability isn't useful if your payload doesn't use it. >Based on your numbers, Falcon 9 is $9 million and $7.5 million per tonne. Ariane 6 is €15 million and €7.8 million, respectively. Given €1 is generally worth more than $1, and that the Ariane's prices are still just projections, I think you made your counterargument. These prices are within 20%, which I'd call competitive given non-price factors. The claim was not that Ariane was cheaper. >Source? It's been a few years since I was in the launch industry, but even then piggyback slots on Falcon 9s were in heavy demand. Sufficiently so that a number of companies (e.g. Spaceflight [1]) cropped up to broker them. Secondary payloads — especially multi-smallsat rideshare — are notoriously hard to coordinate. Spaceflight's SHERPA mission was supposed to fly secondary to the (tiny) Formosat-5 payload, but was pulled due to delays.[0] SFI now plans to stick with "dedicated rideshare" on rockets booked by them entirely for their customers. Their first flight will be SSO-A on a dedicated Falcon 9 later this year. Historically, Falcon has flown few secondary payloads. An OG-2 prototype flew as a secondary on CRS-1, but was lost due to the engine-out on ascent. Iridium-6 shared with NASA's Grace-FO, after both missions dropped off Dnepr due to the Ukraine crisis.[1] Hispasat-30W carried a small hosted (then released) secondary as part of an experimental deployment system.[2] I can't think of any other notable secondary payloads. [0] https://spacenews.com/spacex-delays-force-spaceflight-to-find-alternative-launches/ https://spacenews.com/spacex-delays-force-spaceflight-to-fin... [1] https://spacenews.com/iridium-buys-eighth-falcon-9-launch-shares-with-earth-science-mission/ https://spacenews.com/iridium-buys-eighth-falcon-9-launch-sh... [2] https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/03/12/spacexs-most-recent-launch-carried-a-secret-military-funded-experiment/ https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/03/12/spacexs-most-recent-la...

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> their satellite is, perhaps, 3 tonnes, allowing them to fly in the upper berth for €45 million €45 million is over $52 million. The Falcon 9, in re-usable mode, is cheaper and, in non-reusable mode, requires you find a buddy who will pay at least $10 million for 2 metric tonnes of launch capacity. > Secondary payloads — especially multi-smallsat rideshare — are notoriously hard to coordinate It's an easier problem to solve than building a new launch platform. Particularly if reusability increases launch frequency. Ariane 6 was designed assuming reusability would fail. That wasn't unreasonable ten years ago. I agree there will be niches where someone will be forced to pay up for scheduling. But as launch frequencies increase--from SpaceX as well as Blue Origin, RocketLab, India, et cetera--that niche will narrow.
- rory096 8y ago
  >€45 million is over $52 million. The Falcon 9, in re-usable mode, is cheaper and, in non-reusable mode, requires you find a buddy who will pay at least $10 million for 2 metric tonnes of launch capacity. F9 reusable is about the same. For Falcon 9, you'll need that secondary payload provider to also pay for a custom payload adapter and deployment mechanism, since berths aren't standardized as on Ariane. >It's an easier problem to solve than building a new launch platform. Particularly if reusability increases launch frequency. Certainly, but it's not one that has been solved. I suspect moving forward we'll see it mostly solved for very small sats on dedicated rideshare missions, while excess payload for larger commercial sats remains unused. >Ariane 6 was designed assuming reusability would fail. That wasn't unreasonable ten years ago. Certainly. But it's important to note that designing for first stage reusability wouldn't necessarily be profitable either. SpaceX is already cheaper without it and is quickly taking market share away. As launch cadence drops, financial returns on reusability fall quickly. If you're second fiddle already, you may very well lose money by investing in reusability. >I agree there will be niches where someone will be forced to pay up for scheduling. But as launch frequencies increase--from SpaceX as well as Blue Origin, RocketLab, India, et cetera--that niche will narrow. I'd argue Ariane's niche remains reliability, not scheduling (which it has problems with because of the dual berth conops[0]). SpaceX will soon own schedule reliability as its backlog dissipates and boosters are rapidly reused. But there's a reason JWST is going on Ariane 5. [0] https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/04/27/concerns-with-indian-payload-postpone-next-ariane-5-launch/ https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/04/27/concerns-with-indian-p...
Osmium 8y ago
> Secondary payloads — especially multi-smallsat rideshare — are notoriously hard to coordinate. Can’t wait for a Lyft Line for space ;) “Your rocket will depart in 3 months.”
- greglindahl 8y ago
  The company is named Spaceflight Industries.
HeadsUpHigh 8y ago
>Secondary payloads — especially multi-smallsat rideshare — are notoriously hard to coordinate. Ariane would be terrible for such payloads. These tend to go into lower orbits and Ariane can't restart it's upper stage engine to change the orbit. Something like Electron is a much better -and cheaper- choice.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> their satellite is, perhaps, 3 tonnes, allowing them to fly in the upper berth for €45 million €45 million is over $52 million. The Falcon 9, in re-usable mode, is cheaper and, in non-reusable mode, requires you find a buddy who will pay at least $10 million for 2 metric tonnes of launch capacity. > Secondary payloads — especially multi-smallsat rideshare — are notoriously hard to coordinate It's an easier problem to solve than building a new launch platform. Particularly if reusability increases launch frequency. Ariane 6 was designed assuming reusability would fail. That wasn't unreasonable ten years ago. I agree there will be niches where someone will be forced to pay up for scheduling. But as launch frequencies increase--from SpaceX as well as Blue Origin, RocketLab, India, et cetera--that niche will narrow.

rory096 8y ago
>€45 million is over $52 million. The Falcon 9, in re-usable mode, is cheaper and, in non-reusable mode, requires you find a buddy who will pay at least $10 million for 2 metric tonnes of launch capacity. F9 reusable is about the same. For Falcon 9, you'll need that secondary payload provider to also pay for a custom payload adapter and deployment mechanism, since berths aren't standardized as on Ariane. >It's an easier problem to solve than building a new launch platform. Particularly if reusability increases launch frequency. Certainly, but it's not one that has been solved. I suspect moving forward we'll see it mostly solved for very small sats on dedicated rideshare missions, while excess payload for larger commercial sats remains unused. >Ariane 6 was designed assuming reusability would fail. That wasn't unreasonable ten years ago. Certainly. But it's important to note that designing for first stage reusability wouldn't necessarily be profitable either. SpaceX is already cheaper without it and is quickly taking market share away. As launch cadence drops, financial returns on reusability fall quickly. If you're second fiddle already, you may very well lose money by investing in reusability. >I agree there will be niches where someone will be forced to pay up for scheduling. But as launch frequencies increase--from SpaceX as well as Blue Origin, RocketLab, India, et cetera--that niche will narrow. I'd argue Ariane's niche remains reliability, not scheduling (which it has problems with because of the dual berth conops[0]). SpaceX will soon own schedule reliability as its backlog dissipates and boosters are rapidly reused. But there's a reason JWST is going on Ariane 5. [0] https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/04/27/concerns-with-indian-payload-postpone-next-ariane-5-launch/ https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/04/27/concerns-with-indian-p...

Osmium 8y ago

> Secondary payloads — especially multi-smallsat rideshare — are notoriously hard to coordinate. Can’t wait for a Lyft Line for space ;) “Your rocket will depart in 3 months.”

greglindahl 8y ago
The company is named Spaceflight Industries.

HeadsUpHigh 8y ago

>Secondary payloads — especially multi-smallsat rideshare — are notoriously hard to coordinate. Ariane would be terrible for such payloads. These tend to go into lower orbits and Ariane can't restart it's upper stage engine to change the orbit. Something like Electron is a much better -and cheaper- choice.