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Edit: Yeah I'm off the mark, median pay is more like 10-8. I gotta read more closely I think the "mutually beneficial" is somewhat debatable. If you take in to

by britch 8y ago

Edit: Yeah I'm off the mark, median pay is more like 10-8. I gotta read more closely I think the "mutually beneficial" is somewhat debatable. If you take in to account the cost of upkeep on the vehicle from increased driving some drivers barely break even or even lose money driving for uber. On median a driver makes something like 3 dollars an hour https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/01/uber-lyft-driver-wages-median-report https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/01/uber-lyft...

peacetreefrog 8y ago
It has to be mutually beneficial, otherwise drivers would be doing something else. We don't have slavery in this country anymore. One of the biggest benefits is working whenever you want. A paper by the NBER found drivers get twice the consumer (or producer in this case I guess) surplus they would from less flexible arraignments: http://www.nber.org/papers/w23296 http://www.nber.org/papers/w23296
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > We don't have slavery in this country anymore. The US, post-13th Amendment, still has both de jure (specifically, penal) slavery and de facto slavery, though there are laws designed to combat the latter (including, inter alia, the ones Uber tries to hack around.)
  - peacetreefrog 8y ago
    And is your argument that driving for Uber is de facto slavery?
- britch 8y ago
  >It has to be mutually beneficial, otherwise drivers would be doing something else. We don't have slavery in this country anymore. I want to be clear here, and I'd appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I never claimed rideshare drivers were slaves. I was questioning the degree to which the arrangement was beneficial to both parties. If everyone was perfectly rational, I would agree with you. But many of these additional costs are hidden. Uber advertises ~$8 an hour, which sounds pretty good. But they don't mention the wear and tear on the car, the increased cost of mechanics, etc. I'm not convinced most drivers are aware of that or look into it. Clearly it is somewhat beneficial for the drivers. $4 an hour is better than $0 an hour, but I still think it's worth pointing out it's not even minimum wage in the US.
  - peacetreefrog 8y ago
    No worries, not suggesting you think it's slavery. I think that would be a pretty extreme position to take. I do agree people aren't always rational, and there are certainly other costs in terms of wear and tear etc. But I think people are (1) relatively more rational when it comes to money, (2) get more rational with experience (i.e. as they observe having to take their cars in more after driving a while). Uber has > 160k active drivers, I think it's very paternalistic to suggest they aren't rational enough to realize how screwed they're getting and think gov or some other third party needs to step in. I think it should also give us pause that many of the loudest voices saying these things (especially locally) are associated with the taxi industry. These researchers say it's $8.55. Some people argue it should be more (like $13), but -- like I said in another comment -- a job is a bundle of things including pay but also: flexibility, liking who you work with, feeling like you accomplished something, etc. Uber provides very high flexibility (literally can almost work on demand), which economists have estimated gives drivers twice the surplus over similar paying, less flexible options.
    - britch 8y ago
      I agree with your numbers after doing some more reading, i was definitely off the mark going in. I would point to the high turnover rate as an indication that people do realize that maybe they aren't making what they thought they would when they started. I think people catch on, but that doesn't stop others from signing up without realizing it. However I'm not convinced the drivers are being exploited to the degree I originally claimed. You make good points and have given me much to consider
potlee 8y ago
No they don't. From your link: > The first draft of the paper, released last month, said the median profit was $3.37 an hour, but the author released a new analysis on Monday following criticism from Uber. In the new analysis, the researcher reported the higher median profit of $8.55 an hour. Another quote from your link: > Alex Tabarrok, a George Mason University professor who called the paper’s findings “dubious” last week, said he still had concerns about the researcher’s reliance on questionable survey data and that he believed the average hourly profit of Uber drivers was closer to $13 an hour (similar to figures the company has cited).
- britch 8y ago
  My bad. I read one article and linked to another without reading it. I gotta check my sources more closely.

by britch 8y ago

peacetreefrog 8y ago

It has to be mutually beneficial, otherwise drivers would be doing something else. We don't have slavery in this country anymore. One of the biggest benefits is working whenever you want. A paper by the NBER found drivers get twice the consumer (or producer in this case I guess) surplus they would from less flexible arraignments: http://www.nber.org/papers/w23296 http://www.nber.org/papers/w23296

dragonwriter 8y ago
> We don't have slavery in this country anymore. The US, post-13th Amendment, still has both de jure (specifically, penal) slavery and de facto slavery, though there are laws designed to combat the latter (including, inter alia, the ones Uber tries to hack around.)
- peacetreefrog 8y ago
  And is your argument that driving for Uber is de facto slavery?
britch 8y ago
>It has to be mutually beneficial, otherwise drivers would be doing something else. We don't have slavery in this country anymore. I want to be clear here, and I'd appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth. I never claimed rideshare drivers were slaves. I was questioning the degree to which the arrangement was beneficial to both parties. If everyone was perfectly rational, I would agree with you. But many of these additional costs are hidden. Uber advertises ~$8 an hour, which sounds pretty good. But they don't mention the wear and tear on the car, the increased cost of mechanics, etc. I'm not convinced most drivers are aware of that or look into it. Clearly it is somewhat beneficial for the drivers. $4 an hour is better than $0 an hour, but I still think it's worth pointing out it's not even minimum wage in the US.
- peacetreefrog 8y ago
  No worries, not suggesting you think it's slavery. I think that would be a pretty extreme position to take. I do agree people aren't always rational, and there are certainly other costs in terms of wear and tear etc. But I think people are (1) relatively more rational when it comes to money, (2) get more rational with experience (i.e. as they observe having to take their cars in more after driving a while). Uber has > 160k active drivers, I think it's very paternalistic to suggest they aren't rational enough to realize how screwed they're getting and think gov or some other third party needs to step in. I think it should also give us pause that many of the loudest voices saying these things (especially locally) are associated with the taxi industry. These researchers say it's $8.55. Some people argue it should be more (like $13), but -- like I said in another comment -- a job is a bundle of things including pay but also: flexibility, liking who you work with, feeling like you accomplished something, etc. Uber provides very high flexibility (literally can almost work on demand), which economists have estimated gives drivers twice the surplus over similar paying, less flexible options.
  - britch 8y ago
    I agree with your numbers after doing some more reading, i was definitely off the mark going in. I would point to the high turnover rate as an indication that people do realize that maybe they aren't making what they thought they would when they started. I think people catch on, but that doesn't stop others from signing up without realizing it. However I'm not convinced the drivers are being exploited to the degree I originally claimed. You make good points and have given me much to consider

potlee 8y ago

No they don't. From your link: > The first draft of the paper, released last month, said the median profit was $3.37 an hour, but the author released a new analysis on Monday following criticism from Uber. In the new analysis, the researcher reported the higher median profit of $8.55 an hour. Another quote from your link: > Alex Tabarrok, a George Mason University professor who called the paper’s findings “dubious” last week, said he still had concerns about the researcher’s reliance on questionable survey data and that he believed the average hourly profit of Uber drivers was closer to $13 an hour (similar to figures the company has cited).

britch 8y ago
My bad. I read one article and linked to another without reading it. I gotta check my sources more closely.