5 ms·

I think Facebook is in a tough position. Making hard rules around what is allowed and what is not is very difficult, as there’s a whole spectrum of ideas that c

by orev 8y ago

I think Facebook is in a tough position. Making hard rules around what is allowed and what is not is very difficult, as there’s a whole spectrum of ideas that could or could not fall into them. It’s too easy to think that everything should be clear-cut, but reality is messy. I think Zuckerberg was also shaken by the Congressional hearing, and seems to be cowtowing a bit to Conservatives after the raking he got from Cruz. He is trying to avoid the appearance of being partisan, but also trying to uphold ideals of reason and truth. That’s a no-win situation when one side has made it their fundamental platform to oppose reason and truth.

mistermann 8y ago
> That’s a no-win situation when one side has made it their fundamental platform to oppose reason and truth. That's a fairly extraordinary claim, and you know what they say about extraordinary claims. Do you have any evidence of this? Care to share your most compelling piece?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- iron0013 8y ago
  mistermann, I've noticed that a lot of your activity on HN seems to consist of demanding that others do research for your own edification. I wonder if you'd consider, please, recognizing that other people also value their own time and energy, and actually expending some effort to educate yourself. It seems like the polite and responsible thing to do. Thanks!
  - mistermann 8y ago
    If you reread, I think you will find that I'm not asking people to do research, but rather to back up non-trivial claims of "fact" with actual evidence. Ideas matter. Culture is not an imaginary concept. It is real, and it matters. You can safely ignore it in the short run with few problems, but ignore it in the long run and you will may suffer dire consequences. Certain words have very precise meanings, that's why we have synonyms in our language. Improper choice of words matters, to varying degrees. As does improper "choice" of "facts". The degree to which an individual and overall collective society understands and correctly interprets (to the best of our ability) reality, and honestly acknowledges the that which they know to be true, matters. Some lying may be justified in an "the ends justifies the means" sense, sometimes, but be careful that you don't get into a habit of it lest you lose the ability to recognize when you're lying. This goes doubly, at least, for the media. Repeat something enough times and people start to believe it whether it is true or not. In practice, perception is reality, and I think you can observe this theory in action in any internet forum, including this one (on certain topics), as well as the overall political discourse we're enjoying in the West at the moment. And when I say this, I am keeping in mind this: https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html Censoring (via outright deletion/banning, or via imperfect downvote-based mechanisms) sincere and legitimate opinions that may differ from the current mainstream fashion can result in perception bubbles forming within social media communities. In the long run, this can affect people's perception of reality, and it matters. The universe doesn't care whether you agree or not. I hope you might reconsider the content of my past and future posts with these ideas in mind. EDIT (since I am currently censored): > Great! Both you and the guy that you are originally challenging seem to agree that facts and truth matter. So what's the problem? He is stating opinions as if they are facts, that's the problem. > I think I'll do you the favor of not addressing most of the rest of your post, which seems a little... unfocused. Consider the possibility that it isn't me that is in need of a favor. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
    - iron0013 8y ago
      Great! Both you and the guy that you are originally challenging seem to agree that facts and truth matter. I also belong to the reality-based community. So what's the problem? I think I'll do you the favor of not addressing most of the rest of your post, which seems a little... unfocused.
      - mistermann 8y ago
        See edit above.
- bena 8y ago
  It's clearly in the realm of opinion. Also, it's the only part of his post you have issue with? Why is that?
  - mistermann 8y ago
    > It's clearly in the realm of opinion. Then qualify it as an opinion rather than stating it as a fact. People subconsciously form opinions based on information they consume, including comments like that (not your comment, to be clear). I don't know about you, but when I come to a forum that takes itself as seriously as HN, I expect people to hold themselves to some reasonable standard of honesty. You'd be a fool to believe everything you read on reddit, can we not set higher standards for ourselves here? The HN guidelines suggest that's our intent. > Also, it's the only part of his post you have issue with? Why is that? I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't have an issue with the rest of his post because it not only seems at least reasonably accurate, but some of it ("It’s too easy to think that everything should be clear-cut, but reality is messy") seems very insightful in this age of largely fact-optional ideological sniping. Meta: "You're posting too fast. Please slow down. Thanks." I'd bet money bet this message isn't entirely honest with respect to the underlying algorithm. In my opinion, Facebook isn't the only platform that has a ~moral responsibility in society with respect to speech and its effect on society.
    - bena 8y ago
      I too expect a higher standard of honesty, but we still get people being dishonest about their intentions. They couch it in peculiar questions and playing devil's advocate. Then when a light is shined upon their behavior, they feign ignorance. It is a problem.
      - mistermann 8y ago
        I agree, so please join me in applying some social pressure to those who are behaving as if facts and opinions are equivalent. Perhaps it's relatively harmless while the wind is behind the back of one political fashion of the day, but if the the public has lost the ability to tell the difference between fact and reality and the political fashion changes, it may not be so harmless. See the current state of affairs in politics as an example of the importance of this.

by orev 8y ago

mistermann 8y ago

> That’s a no-win situation when one side has made it their fundamental platform to oppose reason and truth. That's a fairly extraordinary claim, and you know what they say about extraordinary claims. Do you have any evidence of this? Care to share your most compelling piece?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
iron0013 8y ago
mistermann, I've noticed that a lot of your activity on HN seems to consist of demanding that others do research for your own edification. I wonder if you'd consider, please, recognizing that other people also value their own time and energy, and actually expending some effort to educate yourself. It seems like the polite and responsible thing to do. Thanks!
- mistermann 8y ago
  If you reread, I think you will find that I'm not asking people to do research, but rather to back up non-trivial claims of "fact" with actual evidence. Ideas matter. Culture is not an imaginary concept. It is real, and it matters. You can safely ignore it in the short run with few problems, but ignore it in the long run and you will may suffer dire consequences. Certain words have very precise meanings, that's why we have synonyms in our language. Improper choice of words matters, to varying degrees. As does improper "choice" of "facts". The degree to which an individual and overall collective society understands and correctly interprets (to the best of our ability) reality, and honestly acknowledges the that which they know to be true, matters. Some lying may be justified in an "the ends justifies the means" sense, sometimes, but be careful that you don't get into a habit of it lest you lose the ability to recognize when you're lying. This goes doubly, at least, for the media. Repeat something enough times and people start to believe it whether it is true or not. In practice, perception is reality, and I think you can observe this theory in action in any internet forum, including this one (on certain topics), as well as the overall political discourse we're enjoying in the West at the moment. And when I say this, I am keeping in mind this: https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html Censoring (via outright deletion/banning, or via imperfect downvote-based mechanisms) sincere and legitimate opinions that may differ from the current mainstream fashion can result in perception bubbles forming within social media communities. In the long run, this can affect people's perception of reality, and it matters. The universe doesn't care whether you agree or not. I hope you might reconsider the content of my past and future posts with these ideas in mind. EDIT (since I am currently censored): > Great! Both you and the guy that you are originally challenging seem to agree that facts and truth matter. So what's the problem? He is stating opinions as if they are facts, that's the problem. > I think I'll do you the favor of not addressing most of the rest of your post, which seems a little... unfocused. Consider the possibility that it isn't me that is in need of a favor. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
  - iron0013 8y ago
    Great! Both you and the guy that you are originally challenging seem to agree that facts and truth matter. I also belong to the reality-based community. So what's the problem? I think I'll do you the favor of not addressing most of the rest of your post, which seems a little... unfocused.
    - mistermann 8y ago
      See edit above.
bena 8y ago
It's clearly in the realm of opinion. Also, it's the only part of his post you have issue with? Why is that?
- mistermann 8y ago
  > It's clearly in the realm of opinion. Then qualify it as an opinion rather than stating it as a fact. People subconsciously form opinions based on information they consume, including comments like that (not your comment, to be clear). I don't know about you, but when I come to a forum that takes itself as seriously as HN, I expect people to hold themselves to some reasonable standard of honesty. You'd be a fool to believe everything you read on reddit, can we not set higher standards for ourselves here? The HN guidelines suggest that's our intent. > Also, it's the only part of his post you have issue with? Why is that? I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't have an issue with the rest of his post because it not only seems at least reasonably accurate, but some of it ("It’s too easy to think that everything should be clear-cut, but reality is messy") seems very insightful in this age of largely fact-optional ideological sniping. Meta: "You're posting too fast. Please slow down. Thanks." I'd bet money bet this message isn't entirely honest with respect to the underlying algorithm. In my opinion, Facebook isn't the only platform that has a ~moral responsibility in society with respect to speech and its effect on society.
  - bena 8y ago
    I too expect a higher standard of honesty, but we still get people being dishonest about their intentions. They couch it in peculiar questions and playing devil's advocate. Then when a light is shined upon their behavior, they feign ignorance. It is a problem.
    - mistermann 8y ago
      I agree, so please join me in applying some social pressure to those who are behaving as if facts and opinions are equivalent. Perhaps it's relatively harmless while the wind is behind the back of one political fashion of the day, but if the the public has lost the ability to tell the difference between fact and reality and the political fashion changes, it may not be so harmless. See the current state of affairs in politics as an example of the importance of this.