4 ms·

decision-makers continue to pretend they're fun and/or foster collaboration That's because 99 times out 100, those decision makers don't subject themselves to

decision-makers continue to pretend they're fun and/or foster collaboration That's because 99 times out 100, those decision makers don't subject themselves to the open office. They always get their own quiet nook of the workspace with a door while the workforce gets the joy of learning how noise-cancelling headphones work (or, on the flip side: learn that their favorite brand of headphones aren't doing the job).

maxxxxx 8y ago
Exactly. In my company the facilities department shrugs off any suggestions that the current layout is too loud and hard to work in. Obviously they themselves work in a nice quiet team office with 5 people and everybody has a nice window seat with plenty of space. It should be required that whoever makes these decisions should have to dogfood them.
- iamdave 8y ago
  I don't disagree but It should be required that whoever makes these decisions should have to dogfood them. By what mechanism would this occur? I've spent enough time in the military to know human ego will never allow this to happen, it's like asking the fox to put a lock on the hen house, and turn the keys over to the farmer. Outside of exceptional leaders like the ones where lykr0n works-that actually want to be and behave like leaders-very rarely will you see command subjecting themselves to the shit endured by the commanded.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    In the case of the open office it should be required that the people who make the decision also work in the same office layout. That's not difficult to do. Don't overthink it. Let's start with CEOs and VPs work elbow by elbow in an open layout and have to buy headphones.
    - iamdave 8y ago
      Don't overthink it. This isn't asking antagonistically, it's a legitimate ask, so I hope you'll understand my tone isn't one of aggression: How am I over thinking it? The proposed idea is to require leaders sit with their constituents. Leaders are the ones choosing these horrible open office layouts. How do you make them do something that in many cases, as many folks are replying in this thread to the effect of-they do not want to do? Do you appeal to the board of directors? What does that look like? When one says "this should be required", my immediate thought is, okay how do you implement it, and how do you actually enforce it? And that's what I'm asking here. I don't think I'm overthinking it, but thinking exactly the question that will need to be answered if that suggestion is to take root anywhere. How do you require the leaders of your company to do something they might not want to do?
    - alexhutcheson 8y ago
      CEOs and VPs (and even the layer of middle management below them at a big company) probably have a schedule that's almost 100% full of meetings, so the specifics of where their desk is normally don't even matter.
  - thomasmeeks 8y ago
    I had this same realization. In this context it doesn't work as well, anyway, because senior leaders are in meetings so often that their desk is fairly meaningless. But to generalize at a higher level -- "by what mechanism do we force management to be decent?" -- the only one I've discovered is to be willing to leave jobs that have management practices that one doesn't agree with. Unfortunately that advice doesn't work in the general case -- mobility is relatively easy for developers but we don't make up a large part of the population. I feel like the right answer is some changes in our social structure or economy that makes job mobility much (much) easier. Like a BI/Negative Income Tax, or free education, etc.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      "In this context it doesn't work as well, anyway, because senior leaders are in meetings so often that their desk is fairly meaningless." So why do they still have huge window offices? They could lead by example and give up those.
      - thomasmeeks 8y ago
        I'm not sure -- I haven't worked long enough at a company where managers had their own office & everyone was in an open office plan. My experience was that everyone, including the CEO, was in an open office (40+ person startup, 800+ person growth company). But that it didn't really matter all that much because leadership (senior or not) was barely at their desk anyway. I do agree that if senior leadership wants an open office plan, they should commit to working in such an environment with their teams.
        alistairSH 8y ago
        This mirrors my experience (see sibling comment from me). C-levels have open desks, but they're grouped in a corner, surrounded by boardrooms, and the C-levels are rarely at their desk. VPs and line managers are open like the rest of the employees. And they spend a lot of their time in other meeting spaces.
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    My employer built out a new HQ last year. It's all open, including the executive area. The only nod to privacy for the CEO is a corner desk flanked by board rooms on both sides and her admin towards the interior - it's open, albeit semi-protected. Same for the other C-levels. VP and other non-executive management have the same desks as everybody else, intermixed with their teams. We do have ample meeting spaces, from drop-in huddle rooms for 2-4 people to normal bookable conference rooms. And we spend a lot of time in them, especially management. Would private offices work better for the company? I have no idea. But, the current environment doesn't strike me as any worse than the previous HQ, which had high-walled cubes but lacked ample meeting spaces. Edit - and by "any worse", I mean there are flaws for sure. I'm not arguing open is great. Just no worse than the previous generation of cubes.
  - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
    > I've spent enough time in the military to know human ego will never allow this to happen It's not human ego: people can be egotistical in any class. It's power.
    - iamdave 8y ago
      Hrm. You might be right. Ego and power are quite symbiotic-in that regard, at least in my opinion. But I can definitely see the inherent distinction that you're trying to draw.
lykr0n 8y ago
Where I work, the Senior Leadership sits in various Hexes and are given no preferred treatment (except for having their own conference room that they don't have to share). There would be a lot of resentment if they closed themselves off into their own area like more of the old gaurd typically does.
framebit 8y ago
The higher-ups in my open office technically have desks out here with us, but they spend so much time on the road or have meetings in conference rooms that it's a completely different experience. Same with sales folks who are on the road the road 70% of the time but come back to have loud phone calls for that 30%.
technofiend 8y ago
>...gets the joy of learning how noise-cancelling headphones work (or, on the flip side: learn that their favorite brand of headphones aren't doing the job). Or like me learn those chronic ear infections you suffered as a kid can be triggered as an adult by wearing in-ear headphones for a few hours. Open-back headphones like the AKG K7XX don't cause the issue for me, but then again if I crank them enough to drown out that one annoying coworker then everyone around me hears what I'm listening to and it can trigger my tinnitus. Damn. Maybe I need to apply for an office because I have a hearing-related disability. :-)
breischl 8y ago
The execs at our company put themselves in the same open-plan... but then they each perma-booked a conference room for their own personal use. So they don't really live it, and they made the problem of scarce conference room space even worse. Win-win! /s

maxxxxx 8y ago

Exactly. In my company the facilities department shrugs off any suggestions that the current layout is too loud and hard to work in. Obviously they themselves work in a nice quiet team office with 5 people and everybody has a nice window seat with plenty of space. It should be required that whoever makes these decisions should have to dogfood them.

iamdave 8y ago
I don't disagree but It should be required that whoever makes these decisions should have to dogfood them. By what mechanism would this occur? I've spent enough time in the military to know human ego will never allow this to happen, it's like asking the fox to put a lock on the hen house, and turn the keys over to the farmer. Outside of exceptional leaders like the ones where lykr0n works-that actually want to be and behave like leaders-very rarely will you see command subjecting themselves to the shit endured by the commanded.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  In the case of the open office it should be required that the people who make the decision also work in the same office layout. That's not difficult to do. Don't overthink it. Let's start with CEOs and VPs work elbow by elbow in an open layout and have to buy headphones.
  - iamdave 8y ago
    Don't overthink it. This isn't asking antagonistically, it's a legitimate ask, so I hope you'll understand my tone isn't one of aggression: How am I over thinking it? The proposed idea is to require leaders sit with their constituents. Leaders are the ones choosing these horrible open office layouts. How do you make them do something that in many cases, as many folks are replying in this thread to the effect of-they do not want to do? Do you appeal to the board of directors? What does that look like? When one says "this should be required", my immediate thought is, okay how do you implement it, and how do you actually enforce it? And that's what I'm asking here. I don't think I'm overthinking it, but thinking exactly the question that will need to be answered if that suggestion is to take root anywhere. How do you require the leaders of your company to do something they might not want to do?
  - alexhutcheson 8y ago
    CEOs and VPs (and even the layer of middle management below them at a big company) probably have a schedule that's almost 100% full of meetings, so the specifics of where their desk is normally don't even matter.
- thomasmeeks 8y ago
  I had this same realization. In this context it doesn't work as well, anyway, because senior leaders are in meetings so often that their desk is fairly meaningless. But to generalize at a higher level -- "by what mechanism do we force management to be decent?" -- the only one I've discovered is to be willing to leave jobs that have management practices that one doesn't agree with. Unfortunately that advice doesn't work in the general case -- mobility is relatively easy for developers but we don't make up a large part of the population. I feel like the right answer is some changes in our social structure or economy that makes job mobility much (much) easier. Like a BI/Negative Income Tax, or free education, etc.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    "In this context it doesn't work as well, anyway, because senior leaders are in meetings so often that their desk is fairly meaningless." So why do they still have huge window offices? They could lead by example and give up those.
    - thomasmeeks 8y ago
      I'm not sure -- I haven't worked long enough at a company where managers had their own office & everyone was in an open office plan. My experience was that everyone, including the CEO, was in an open office (40+ person startup, 800+ person growth company). But that it didn't really matter all that much because leadership (senior or not) was barely at their desk anyway. I do agree that if senior leadership wants an open office plan, they should commit to working in such an environment with their teams.
      - alistairSH 8y ago
        This mirrors my experience (see sibling comment from me). C-levels have open desks, but they're grouped in a corner, surrounded by boardrooms, and the C-levels are rarely at their desk. VPs and line managers are open like the rest of the employees. And they spend a lot of their time in other meeting spaces.
- alistairSH 8y ago
  My employer built out a new HQ last year. It's all open, including the executive area. The only nod to privacy for the CEO is a corner desk flanked by board rooms on both sides and her admin towards the interior - it's open, albeit semi-protected. Same for the other C-levels. VP and other non-executive management have the same desks as everybody else, intermixed with their teams. We do have ample meeting spaces, from drop-in huddle rooms for 2-4 people to normal bookable conference rooms. And we spend a lot of time in them, especially management. Would private offices work better for the company? I have no idea. But, the current environment doesn't strike me as any worse than the previous HQ, which had high-walled cubes but lacked ample meeting spaces. Edit - and by "any worse", I mean there are flaws for sure. I'm not arguing open is great. Just no worse than the previous generation of cubes.
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  > I've spent enough time in the military to know human ego will never allow this to happen It's not human ego: people can be egotistical in any class. It's power.
  - iamdave 8y ago
    Hrm. You might be right. Ego and power are quite symbiotic-in that regard, at least in my opinion. But I can definitely see the inherent distinction that you're trying to draw.

lykr0n 8y ago

Where I work, the Senior Leadership sits in various Hexes and are given no preferred treatment (except for having their own conference room that they don't have to share). There would be a lot of resentment if they closed themselves off into their own area like more of the old gaurd typically does.

framebit 8y ago

The higher-ups in my open office technically have desks out here with us, but they spend so much time on the road or have meetings in conference rooms that it's a completely different experience. Same with sales folks who are on the road the road 70% of the time but come back to have loud phone calls for that 30%.

technofiend 8y ago

>...gets the joy of learning how noise-cancelling headphones work (or, on the flip side: learn that their favorite brand of headphones aren't doing the job). Or like me learn those chronic ear infections you suffered as a kid can be triggered as an adult by wearing in-ear headphones for a few hours. Open-back headphones like the AKG K7XX don't cause the issue for me, but then again if I crank them enough to drown out that one annoying coworker then everyone around me hears what I'm listening to and it can trigger my tinnitus. Damn. Maybe I need to apply for an office because I have a hearing-related disability. :-)

breischl 8y ago

The execs at our company put themselves in the same open-plan... but then they each perma-booked a conference room for their own personal use. So they don't really live it, and they made the problem of scarce conference room space even worse. Win-win! /s