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I'd be interested in seeing a language that can take full advantage of the architecture in Out of the Tarpit. It's always touted as a must read paper but I hav

I'd be interested in seeing a language that can take full advantage of the architecture in Out of the Tarpit. It's always touted as a must read paper but I haven't seen many inroads towards something truly Functional-Relational. I don't think a new query language is the solution to the problem. SQL isn't that bad. Sure, for sanity, every language has a reimplementation of SQL syntax using whatever abstractions available. But even if you don't go SQL, you've got datalog. A language being 40 to 50 years old doesn't make it a problem. I'm speaking English - that's been through 2000 years of iteration. I don't think that makes it a good candidate for a ground up rethink when so much thought by great thinkers has already gone into it.

dnomad 8y ago
SQL is a bad solution to the wrong problem. After 50 years it remains non-intuitive and confusing and extracts a tax penalty far greater than its value add. Worse, the problem it claims to solve, "I have all my data in one database now let me transact over it", isn't viable and was never actually viable at scale. Unfortunately this proposal doesn't understand the real problems with SQL (lack of types, lack of distribution, and no separation between the data write model and the data read model). It actually doesn't seem to introduce anything really new that can't be done using CEP Engines already.
- jwdunne 8y ago
  Do you have any recommendations on where to read about the problems of SQL? When you put it this way, clearly my assertion that "SQL isn't bad" needs a review.
  - techno_modus 8y ago
    There have been many critiques of SQL for example: https://sigmodrecord.org/publications/sigmodRecord/1306/pdfs/11.reports.atzeni.pdf https://sigmodrecord.org/publications/sigmodRecord/1306/pdfs...
    - jwdunne 8y ago
      Thanks for this :) I ask for recommendations because I don't know what I don't know. I've read a few criticisms of SQL where some conclude "just use mongodb". A good recommendation from an expert helps avoid faulty understanding.
- gaius 8y ago
  isn't viable and was never actually viable at scale. And yet the entire global economy somehow works. Maybe viable and scale don’t mean what you think they mean... I mean I run relational databases of 10s of Tb and know people doing 100s. And people with mere Gb tell me they’re doing amazing things with scalability.... lol
asavinov 8y ago
You can check out Bistro [1] which is an alternative to SQL-like languages and to set-oriented approaches in general. It focuses on column operations (formally, functions) as opposed to having only set operations. It is pricesely why it works well for time series and it is why it has been used for stream processing. [1] https://github.com/asavinov/bistro https://github.com/asavinov/bistro

dnomad 8y ago

SQL is a bad solution to the wrong problem. After 50 years it remains non-intuitive and confusing and extracts a tax penalty far greater than its value add. Worse, the problem it claims to solve, "I have all my data in one database now let me transact over it", isn't viable and was never actually viable at scale. Unfortunately this proposal doesn't understand the real problems with SQL (lack of types, lack of distribution, and no separation between the data write model and the data read model). It actually doesn't seem to introduce anything really new that can't be done using CEP Engines already.

jwdunne 8y ago
Do you have any recommendations on where to read about the problems of SQL? When you put it this way, clearly my assertion that "SQL isn't bad" needs a review.
- techno_modus 8y ago
  There have been many critiques of SQL for example: https://sigmodrecord.org/publications/sigmodRecord/1306/pdfs/11.reports.atzeni.pdf https://sigmodrecord.org/publications/sigmodRecord/1306/pdfs...
  - jwdunne 8y ago
    Thanks for this :) I ask for recommendations because I don't know what I don't know. I've read a few criticisms of SQL where some conclude "just use mongodb". A good recommendation from an expert helps avoid faulty understanding.
gaius 8y ago
isn't viable and was never actually viable at scale. And yet the entire global economy somehow works. Maybe viable and scale don’t mean what you think they mean... I mean I run relational databases of 10s of Tb and know people doing 100s. And people with mere Gb tell me they’re doing amazing things with scalability.... lol

asavinov 8y ago

You can check out Bistro [1] which is an alternative to SQL-like languages and to set-oriented approaches in general. It focuses on column operations (formally, functions) as opposed to having only set operations. It is pricesely why it works well for time series and it is why it has been used for stream processing. [1] https://github.com/asavinov/bistro https://github.com/asavinov/bistro