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I've debated several holocaust deniers and I've never met one who was deliberately lying. It's a dangerous world when we make it "illegal and punishable" to be

I've debated several holocaust deniers and I've never met one who was deliberately lying. It's a dangerous world when we make it "illegal and punishable" to be wrong.

onyva 8y ago
Really? It's either of the two: they're deliberately lying, or, they're so ignorant you would not have been able to have a coherent conversation with them to begin with. Facts are not negotiable.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  This attitude is not at all helpful for actually doing away with the prevalence of Holocaust deniers (or Sandy Hook deniers, or Moon Landing deniers, or what have you). Facts are not negotiable, but unless you're omniscient, you have effectively no way to know whether or not someone else's claims are factual, especially when you're confronted with contradictory data sources, unless you happen to have the ability to validate or invalidate those data sources. Maybe instead of attacking the victims of incorrect data sources (thus driving them even further into the wrong by polarizing them against you), you might want to consider attacking the incorrect data sources themselves (and perhaps even their sources). Meanwhile, help those incorrect and duped people find the tools and resources to validate or invalidate those misguided beliefs.
  - onyva 8y ago
    It's not going to work. If you're at the stage where you doubt the Holocaust, flatness of the earth, or what have you, there's really nothing much that can be done. People that hold these views are ignorant. It's like claiming you can seat down and speak someone like Drumpf (a person that never read a history book) out of his stupidity. I would have said racist or antisemitic, but when talking about Americans (if we're talking specifically about Americans), I really think it's pure ignorance. European fascism and antisemitism is historic and profound, almost biological (read Pinsker's Autoemancipation! (1882), for example). I think presently, many American neo-nazis (so called "alt-right), are tapping into it out of profound ignorance. It's enough to hear conservatives (and neo-nazis) call liberal ideas Stalinistic, Nazi and communist (same breath) to figure out it's really just ignorance. Many don't know anything about either. So who do you want to enter into a dialogue with?

I've debated several holocaust deniers and I've never met one who was deliberately lying. It's a dangerous world when we make it "illegal and punishable" to be wrong.

onyva 8y ago

Really? It's either of the two: they're deliberately lying, or, they're so ignorant you would not have been able to have a coherent conversation with them to begin with. Facts are not negotiable.

yellowapple 8y ago
This attitude is not at all helpful for actually doing away with the prevalence of Holocaust deniers (or Sandy Hook deniers, or Moon Landing deniers, or what have you). Facts are not negotiable, but unless you're omniscient, you have effectively no way to know whether or not someone else's claims are factual, especially when you're confronted with contradictory data sources, unless you happen to have the ability to validate or invalidate those data sources. Maybe instead of attacking the victims of incorrect data sources (thus driving them even further into the wrong by polarizing them against you), you might want to consider attacking the incorrect data sources themselves (and perhaps even their sources). Meanwhile, help those incorrect and duped people find the tools and resources to validate or invalidate those misguided beliefs.
- onyva 8y ago
  It's not going to work. If you're at the stage where you doubt the Holocaust, flatness of the earth, or what have you, there's really nothing much that can be done. People that hold these views are ignorant. It's like claiming you can seat down and speak someone like Drumpf (a person that never read a history book) out of his stupidity. I would have said racist or antisemitic, but when talking about Americans (if we're talking specifically about Americans), I really think it's pure ignorance. European fascism and antisemitism is historic and profound, almost biological (read Pinsker's Autoemancipation! (1882), for example). I think presently, many American neo-nazis (so called "alt-right), are tapping into it out of profound ignorance. It's enough to hear conservatives (and neo-nazis) call liberal ideas Stalinistic, Nazi and communist (same breath) to figure out it's really just ignorance. Many don't know anything about either. So who do you want to enter into a dialogue with?