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> It goes to show: something doesn't need to be actually-better. It doesn't need to be actually-simpler. It doesn't need to make your job easier or better. It n

by danso 8y ago

> It goes to show: something doesn't need to be actually-better. It doesn't need to be actually-simpler. It doesn't need to make your job easier or better. It needs to make people think it does that. I don't agree with that takeaway. You ask us to consider all the diversity of opinions here, but then you evaluate them out of context, what one person says about Python is not necessarily in reference to the metrics that another has laid out, hence, they don't "directly contradict each other". To claim that "oh you all just think Python is less verbose than Java, but it's all hype and no fact" is utter absurdity. You seem to have had bad experience that make you think Pythonistas are the tech world's Jehovah Witnesses, when plenty of other programmers will make the same case against Javascript (especially in the Node.js context). Why do you think Python, or any programming language, has to be "revolutionary" -- or engage in cultmindthink -- for it to become popular? edit: added "or engage in cultmindthink"

KirinDave 8y ago
> Why do you think Python, or any programming language, has to be "revolutionary" -- or engage in cultmindthink -- for it to become popular? I don't think it has to, and I didn't say you HAVE to. I'm saying that you can accomplish the goal with a community that prides itself on ignoring things. Python's community is even more insular and ensconced in their opinion than editor proponents. Most Vi proponents can tell you about how they know Emacs and hate it (and vice versa). In the Python world, not knowing these things is in fact often a purity test, with GVR doing some kind of classic, "I'm just a hyperchicken lawyer" gag reel in public while in private engaging in complex debates about the very concepts he claims are inherently not understandable.
- danso 8y ago
  I guess I don't understand what your point is, I even less understand how you measure it, as you don't even offer up a particular language feature or PEP in which Python's purported ignorant groupthink has influenced, or even an outlandish personal anecdote ("This one guy tried to convert all our codebases into Python..."). I guess I can't personally relate since I came from Python after C/JS/Ruby/PHP and have done so not out of delusion or hype. Maybe your perception is based on having met a lot of non-erudite Python developers. Which wouldn't directly contradict the basis of the submitted article, which is that Python is an incredibly popular language, i.e. one that attracts the masses.
- eesmith 8y ago
  Isn't it amazing how an insular group managed to independently come up with Haskell-like list comprehensions, and even give them the same name? And how they managed to develop a unit-test framework for the standard library which coincidentally happened to be similar to the xUnit architecture? It's a miracle that a group so dedicated to ignoring things even heard about the 'await' and 'asynch' keywords for asynchonous programming - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0492/#why-async-and-await-keywords https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0492/#why-async-and-awai... - much less implement them.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    > Isn't it amazing how an insular group managed to independently come up with Haskell-like list comprehensions, and even give them the same name? That's the big irony: The very same things the senior community and GVR pan are in fact their bread and butter. They're smart and informed. But the engender an attitude of willful ignorance in their community. GVR is smart. I've been on a pretty intense private mailing list with him. He can competently talk to both advanced functional programming and OO programming. He can talk about advanced compiler and gc subjects. He just doesn't in public, because that'd weaken the message and persona he adopts in public.
    - eesmith 8y ago
      To the contrary, I cannot reconcile your statement about their insularity with the observed behavior. It's almost as if you are wrong in your interpretation. It's easy to prove me wrong - where has van Rossum panned list comprehensions or the new async/await features?
      - KirinDave 8y ago
        > It's easy to prove me wrong - where has van Rossum panned list comprehensions or the new async/await features? Since I never claimed he did, I struggle to provide offhand examples. See: every discussion about lambdas discredited every day by the existence of a robust self-taught javascript community.

by danso 8y ago

KirinDave 8y ago

> Why do you think Python, or any programming language, has to be "revolutionary" -- or engage in cultmindthink -- for it to become popular? I don't think it has to, and I didn't say you HAVE to. I'm saying that you can accomplish the goal with a community that prides itself on ignoring things. Python's community is even more insular and ensconced in their opinion than editor proponents. Most Vi proponents can tell you about how they know Emacs and hate it (and vice versa). In the Python world, not knowing these things is in fact often a purity test, with GVR doing some kind of classic, "I'm just a hyperchicken lawyer" gag reel in public while in private engaging in complex debates about the very concepts he claims are inherently not understandable.

danso 8y ago
I guess I don't understand what your point is, I even less understand how you measure it, as you don't even offer up a particular language feature or PEP in which Python's purported ignorant groupthink has influenced, or even an outlandish personal anecdote ("This one guy tried to convert all our codebases into Python..."). I guess I can't personally relate since I came from Python after C/JS/Ruby/PHP and have done so not out of delusion or hype. Maybe your perception is based on having met a lot of non-erudite Python developers. Which wouldn't directly contradict the basis of the submitted article, which is that Python is an incredibly popular language, i.e. one that attracts the masses.
eesmith 8y ago
Isn't it amazing how an insular group managed to independently come up with Haskell-like list comprehensions, and even give them the same name? And how they managed to develop a unit-test framework for the standard library which coincidentally happened to be similar to the xUnit architecture? It's a miracle that a group so dedicated to ignoring things even heard about the 'await' and 'asynch' keywords for asynchonous programming - https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0492/#why-async-and-await-keywords https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0492/#why-async-and-awai... - much less implement them.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > Isn't it amazing how an insular group managed to independently come up with Haskell-like list comprehensions, and even give them the same name? That's the big irony: The very same things the senior community and GVR pan are in fact their bread and butter. They're smart and informed. But the engender an attitude of willful ignorance in their community. GVR is smart. I've been on a pretty intense private mailing list with him. He can competently talk to both advanced functional programming and OO programming. He can talk about advanced compiler and gc subjects. He just doesn't in public, because that'd weaken the message and persona he adopts in public.
  - eesmith 8y ago
    To the contrary, I cannot reconcile your statement about their insularity with the observed behavior. It's almost as if you are wrong in your interpretation. It's easy to prove me wrong - where has van Rossum panned list comprehensions or the new async/await features?
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      > It's easy to prove me wrong - where has van Rossum panned list comprehensions or the new async/await features? Since I never claimed he did, I struggle to provide offhand examples. See: every discussion about lambdas discredited every day by the existence of a robust self-taught javascript community.