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Not to be that guy, but we all knew that "Less stress" and "better work life balance" would result from working one day less a week, but it doesn't talk about p

Not to be that guy, but we all knew that "Less stress" and "better work life balance" would result from working one day less a week, but it doesn't talk about productivity or revenue or any of that. I don't think you can realistically call this a "success" if it's not something most businesses could afford to do, and if there was a productivity loss on par with the 20% of work missed then...they're just paying more for less? Am I missing something here?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tobltobs 8y ago
> Am I missing something here? You missed: "Staff stress levels decreased by 7% across the board as a result of the trial, while stimulation, commitment and a sense of empowerment at work all improved significantly, with overall life satisfaction increasing by 5%." or "Employees designed a number of innovations and initiatives to work in a more productive and efficient manner, from automating manual processes to reducing or eliminating non-work-related internet usage," tl;dr: (Sometimes, maybe, for some time) decrease of work time is compensated by increase in productivity,
- taejavu 8y ago
  Neither of these quotes, nor anything in the article, claims that productivity levels were equal to what they were with a 5 day week, let alone increased. How you derived that tl;dr is beyond me, you can't just draw your own conclusions and call it a summary.
colemannugent 8y ago
It's probably not a full 20% loss, but I think your point still stands. To expand a bit: It seems to me that the only way they could work a day less and not affect the companies productivity is if those employees did nothing during that day anyway. Say that in a work week an employee produced 100 units of work (feel free to substitute this with your favorite productivity microbenchmark). Thus, with the 5 day work-week each day the employee must produce around 20 units of work. Say you reduce that to 4 days, so now each day the worker must produce 25 units of work to be as productive. It follows that in order to work one less day per week the worker must work 25% more per day or overall productivity will suffer. Imagine that your company implements something like this, suddenly per-day expectations go way up. Can you complete that meeting at 125% speed? Will your builds finish 25% faster? Can you increase your typing speed by 25%? Can you dig that ditch in 3 hours instead of 4? Can you clear tables 25% faster? I don't think anyone wants the consequences of this. The only way I can remotely see this working out is for the employers of salaried info-workers in high profit-margin industries. For someone employed in a manual or skilled labor position it may be impossible or outright dangerous to attempt to complete tasks at 125% speed. I could however see this being a neat benefit that employers like the Silicon Valley types offer to outbid the competition, but I don't think this is practical for the economy in general.
- thatfrenchguy 8y ago
  "Can you complete that meeting at 125% speed" I think everyone who ever has had a tech job knows that yes, you can. Parkinson's law is a thing.
- paulsutter 8y ago
  Can you get by with 20% fewer meetings? Hells yes. How about 30% fewer to leave more time for work within the four days? Even better
- rosege 8y ago
  Havent RTFA but I heard an interview with the CEO where he said he read that the average employee is only productive for 2-3 hours per day. Thats why he decided to give this a try.
  - colemannugent 8y ago
    >...the average employee is only productive for 2-3 hours per day This sounds true to me, so let's assume that it is. If the average employee was unproductive for most of their day it stands to reason that employers would have a great incentive to only employ workers during their productive hours. Assuming the average employee is only productive for three hours a day, the employer is overpaying their employees by about 60%. The problem seems to be how to eliminate the unproductive hours in a way that also benefits the worker. The way I see things working out is employers asking more of their employees for a smaller amount of compensation. Great for the employer, but I really don't think this is the kind of worker empowerment people are hoping for.
- wahern 8y ago
  I can run 1 mile much faster than I can run 3 miles. And that holds true day after day. Another way to look at things is to use the 4-day week as the baseline. Add another day of work and people can only consistently perform at 80% without burning out. Now, I'm not saying that I believe this is the case--that most companies can cut down to a 4-day week without hurting productivity long-term. Just that your argument isn't intuitive or obvious on its face, and I could see the data going both ways, or simply being a mixed bag.
booleandilemma 8y ago
Everybody at my job is always complaining about how busy they are, yet the office is suspiciously empty on Fridays.
- ironjunkie 8y ago
  It is a shame that we live in that culture in which you need to constantly pretend to be overworked in order to be seen as productive and efficient. I agree with you, a lot of people in Silicon Valley are taking it easy one or two days at week while working from home, or leaving early while still pretending they are working 15 hours a day. We should have a healthy debate about that
  - xupybd 8y ago
    Come the end of the day I'm way less productive that the start. It has nothing to do with pretending. I'm just not able to think as clearly or solve problems as quickly.
  - mmt 8y ago
    No amount of debate, or even enthusiastic agreement, on the part of the "we" that would see this message, would ever result in meaningful changes, if this trend is being driven/caused by upper management. I posit that it is, much like the trend toward open office plans (which have seen plenty of discussion, if not healthy debate).
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    Unfortunately businesses (and especially those in Silicon Valley) are obsessed with the idea of looking productive. The amount of work done doesn't particularly matter; it's far easier to point to the plucky young SDE killing themselves by working 80 hour weeks at lower productivity levels rather than the developer who does his 40, gets shit done and then goes home. There's this strong concept of self-sacrifice as a way of ensuring company success. Sacrifice your life, sacrifice your friends and family for the sake of the company mission. It's only when people start demanding better hours and less abuse will a debate start to arise. And it likely won't be one with a respectful tone.
Nition 8y ago
From: https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018654118/four-day-week-yes-we-can https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/aud... They've apparently reported no drop in overall productivity, i.e. Four days' work is equal to the old five days work, an increase in productivity per day.
- mjfl 8y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. A 32 hour work week is not nearly enough hours to make an additional 8 hours pointless. That's a full 25% of your work week so far. Maybe if we were talking reducing 60-80 hour weeks to 40, maybe. But come on.
  - iamforreal 8y ago
    I'm honestly not surprised by the results, and believe them. Especially for things like programming
  - zaarn 8y ago
    You're assuming those 40 hours are used all productively. I don't think it's wildly off to assume that 8 hours of the 40 hour week are basically wasted because people like playing around once their concentration is gone. Plus on friday, people tend to be a lot less productive.
  - hellweaver666 8y ago
    It absolutely does. In modern companies many employees spend at least an hour a day (and in many cases 2-3 hours for less motivated employees) dicking about on social media, reading the news etc. If the change in working conditions comes with a reduction of this kind of messing around and more work focus, I could see it easily having a profound impact on productivity.
    - adam-a 8y ago
      This definitely seems like it's true. I wonder if there have been any reputable studies or surveys on how much time office employees waste on average like this?
sbjs 8y ago
I’d be more interested in studies showing that you get more productivity by leaving at 4pm than 5pm since that’s when everyone stereotypically starts to slack and goof around on until 5pm anyway.
dylan-m 8y ago
I've been doing a four day week since starting at a place that was willing to put up with my shit. You'd have to talk to my boss for actual numbers, but I feel much more productive: * I usually have one or two major goals for the week, and four days to get there. I find it easier to reason about what I'm going to get done and how when there are fewer, longer days to work with, and I feel less interest in wasting time. * I'm more comfortable focusing on days when I'm at work, and I'm more comfortable working a bit longer to get my stuff done, because I don't have to try to do my laundry and sweep the floors and get the groceries when I get home. (Although I realize it helps not having kids to look after, yet, so ymmv). * I can do my dentist appointments and haircuts on my weekday off, so I rarely have to mess with my schedule or take off early. * My weekends feel long enough. I always get back to work with a clear head. Mondays feel nice. * I have not once told someone at work "nope, I can't do that, I don't have enough time." Will update if that changes :) * I get to spend Friday hacking on personal projects when I feel like it. I haven't been able to do this in years, and sometimes it even benefits my employer. Free training! I once worked at a place where everyone did a four day work week, and it was awesome. The big meetings were always on Tuesday, and we worked lengthy days (8:30-ish am to 5:30 pm), but that meant there was always room to do stuff right, without rushing. That includes taking time for tea.
- over_and_over 8y ago
  I've also recently made the change to a four day week, working from home, after years of a five day, work from office job. My experience mirrors that of the study. I'm more focused during work and don't feel that my productivity has dropped at all. The company I work for has been running with this model for over 5 years successfully with a high levels of morale and productivity.
perfunctory 8y ago
“Employees designed a number of innovations and initiatives to work in a more productive and efficient manner, from automating manual processes to reducing or eliminating non-work-related internet usage,”

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

tobltobs 8y ago

> Am I missing something here? You missed: "Staff stress levels decreased by 7% across the board as a result of the trial, while stimulation, commitment and a sense of empowerment at work all improved significantly, with overall life satisfaction increasing by 5%." or "Employees designed a number of innovations and initiatives to work in a more productive and efficient manner, from automating manual processes to reducing or eliminating non-work-related internet usage," tl;dr: (Sometimes, maybe, for some time) decrease of work time is compensated by increase in productivity,

taejavu 8y ago
Neither of these quotes, nor anything in the article, claims that productivity levels were equal to what they were with a 5 day week, let alone increased. How you derived that tl;dr is beyond me, you can't just draw your own conclusions and call it a summary.

colemannugent 8y ago

It's probably not a full 20% loss, but I think your point still stands. To expand a bit: It seems to me that the only way they could work a day less and not affect the companies productivity is if those employees did nothing during that day anyway. Say that in a work week an employee produced 100 units of work (feel free to substitute this with your favorite productivity microbenchmark). Thus, with the 5 day work-week each day the employee must produce around 20 units of work. Say you reduce that to 4 days, so now each day the worker must produce 25 units of work to be as productive. It follows that in order to work one less day per week the worker must work 25% more per day or overall productivity will suffer. Imagine that your company implements something like this, suddenly per-day expectations go way up. Can you complete that meeting at 125% speed? Will your builds finish 25% faster? Can you increase your typing speed by 25%? Can you dig that ditch in 3 hours instead of 4? Can you clear tables 25% faster? I don't think anyone wants the consequences of this. The only way I can remotely see this working out is for the employers of salaried info-workers in high profit-margin industries. For someone employed in a manual or skilled labor position it may be impossible or outright dangerous to attempt to complete tasks at 125% speed. I could however see this being a neat benefit that employers like the Silicon Valley types offer to outbid the competition, but I don't think this is practical for the economy in general.

thatfrenchguy 8y ago
"Can you complete that meeting at 125% speed" I think everyone who ever has had a tech job knows that yes, you can. Parkinson's law is a thing.
paulsutter 8y ago
Can you get by with 20% fewer meetings? Hells yes. How about 30% fewer to leave more time for work within the four days? Even better
rosege 8y ago
Havent RTFA but I heard an interview with the CEO where he said he read that the average employee is only productive for 2-3 hours per day. Thats why he decided to give this a try.
- colemannugent 8y ago
  >...the average employee is only productive for 2-3 hours per day This sounds true to me, so let's assume that it is. If the average employee was unproductive for most of their day it stands to reason that employers would have a great incentive to only employ workers during their productive hours. Assuming the average employee is only productive for three hours a day, the employer is overpaying their employees by about 60%. The problem seems to be how to eliminate the unproductive hours in a way that also benefits the worker. The way I see things working out is employers asking more of their employees for a smaller amount of compensation. Great for the employer, but I really don't think this is the kind of worker empowerment people are hoping for.
wahern 8y ago
I can run 1 mile much faster than I can run 3 miles. And that holds true day after day. Another way to look at things is to use the 4-day week as the baseline. Add another day of work and people can only consistently perform at 80% without burning out. Now, I'm not saying that I believe this is the case--that most companies can cut down to a 4-day week without hurting productivity long-term. Just that your argument isn't intuitive or obvious on its face, and I could see the data going both ways, or simply being a mixed bag.

booleandilemma 8y ago

Everybody at my job is always complaining about how busy they are, yet the office is suspiciously empty on Fridays.

ironjunkie 8y ago
It is a shame that we live in that culture in which you need to constantly pretend to be overworked in order to be seen as productive and efficient. I agree with you, a lot of people in Silicon Valley are taking it easy one or two days at week while working from home, or leaving early while still pretending they are working 15 hours a day. We should have a healthy debate about that
- xupybd 8y ago
  Come the end of the day I'm way less productive that the start. It has nothing to do with pretending. I'm just not able to think as clearly or solve problems as quickly.
- mmt 8y ago
  No amount of debate, or even enthusiastic agreement, on the part of the "we" that would see this message, would ever result in meaningful changes, if this trend is being driven/caused by upper management. I posit that it is, much like the trend toward open office plans (which have seen plenty of discussion, if not healthy debate).
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  Unfortunately businesses (and especially those in Silicon Valley) are obsessed with the idea of looking productive. The amount of work done doesn't particularly matter; it's far easier to point to the plucky young SDE killing themselves by working 80 hour weeks at lower productivity levels rather than the developer who does his 40, gets shit done and then goes home. There's this strong concept of self-sacrifice as a way of ensuring company success. Sacrifice your life, sacrifice your friends and family for the sake of the company mission. It's only when people start demanding better hours and less abuse will a debate start to arise. And it likely won't be one with a respectful tone.

Nition 8y ago

From: https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018654118/four-day-week-yes-we-can https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/aud... They've apparently reported no drop in overall productivity, i.e. Four days' work is equal to the old five days work, an increase in productivity per day.

mjfl 8y ago
That doesn't make any sense. A 32 hour work week is not nearly enough hours to make an additional 8 hours pointless. That's a full 25% of your work week so far. Maybe if we were talking reducing 60-80 hour weeks to 40, maybe. But come on.
- iamforreal 8y ago
  I'm honestly not surprised by the results, and believe them. Especially for things like programming
- zaarn 8y ago
  You're assuming those 40 hours are used all productively. I don't think it's wildly off to assume that 8 hours of the 40 hour week are basically wasted because people like playing around once their concentration is gone. Plus on friday, people tend to be a lot less productive.
- hellweaver666 8y ago
  It absolutely does. In modern companies many employees spend at least an hour a day (and in many cases 2-3 hours for less motivated employees) dicking about on social media, reading the news etc. If the change in working conditions comes with a reduction of this kind of messing around and more work focus, I could see it easily having a profound impact on productivity.
  - adam-a 8y ago
    This definitely seems like it's true. I wonder if there have been any reputable studies or surveys on how much time office employees waste on average like this?

sbjs 8y ago

I’d be more interested in studies showing that you get more productivity by leaving at 4pm than 5pm since that’s when everyone stereotypically starts to slack and goof around on until 5pm anyway.

dylan-m 8y ago

I've been doing a four day week since starting at a place that was willing to put up with my shit. You'd have to talk to my boss for actual numbers, but I feel much more productive: * I usually have one or two major goals for the week, and four days to get there. I find it easier to reason about what I'm going to get done and how when there are fewer, longer days to work with, and I feel less interest in wasting time. * I'm more comfortable focusing on days when I'm at work, and I'm more comfortable working a bit longer to get my stuff done, because I don't have to try to do my laundry and sweep the floors and get the groceries when I get home. (Although I realize it helps not having kids to look after, yet, so ymmv). * I can do my dentist appointments and haircuts on my weekday off, so I rarely have to mess with my schedule or take off early. * My weekends feel long enough. I always get back to work with a clear head. Mondays feel nice. * I have not once told someone at work "nope, I can't do that, I don't have enough time." Will update if that changes :) * I get to spend Friday hacking on personal projects when I feel like it. I haven't been able to do this in years, and sometimes it even benefits my employer. Free training! I once worked at a place where everyone did a four day work week, and it was awesome. The big meetings were always on Tuesday, and we worked lengthy days (8:30-ish am to 5:30 pm), but that meant there was always room to do stuff right, without rushing. That includes taking time for tea.

over_and_over 8y ago
I've also recently made the change to a four day week, working from home, after years of a five day, work from office job. My experience mirrors that of the study. I'm more focused during work and don't feel that my productivity has dropped at all. The company I work for has been running with this model for over 5 years successfully with a high levels of morale and productivity.

perfunctory 8y ago

“Employees designed a number of innovations and initiatives to work in a more productive and efficient manner, from automating manual processes to reducing or eliminating non-work-related internet usage,”