5 ms·

Have you looked at the source code? web2py is a bad joke with a lot of marketing. Then again, the author isn't really into the Python style - just its userbase.

by ivank 19y ago

Have you looked at the source code? web2py is a bad joke with a lot of marketing. Then again, the author isn't really into the Python style - just its userbase. Look at Django if you want a full stack or Werkzeug if you want to roll your own; the latter can easily emulate the style of web.py or Pylons (in fact the trunk comes with these examples).

aitoehigie 19y ago
I beg to disagree, web2py is quite good, at least in my own impression much better that webpy, at least when looking at it from the angle of code documentation and cohesion.
- mdipierro 19y ago
  Thank you aitoehigie. :-)
mdipierro 19y ago
Are you still upset with web2py because I did not include your package. Com'on. Grow up. web2py is a project grown in a university, it is all but marketing. Unless free good documentation is called marketing. Here is the latest draft manual: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_manual.pdf http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_manual.pdf Here is a preliminary comparison with other frameworks: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_vs_others.pdf http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_vs_others.p... (please correct me if I am wrong)
- webology 19y ago
  I'm not sure about the other frameworks listed but I did notice the following related to Django: - Django's caching supports ram, disk, database, and memcache as well. - Migrations are supported in Django via the 3rd party django_evolution to name one of a few. - Django trunk also has simplejson included. - For documentation there are the online docs, the djangobook.com website, three published books as of today, and at least a few other books coming out in the next few months. My point just being that there is more then just one book.
  - mdipierro 19y ago
    I just made many corrections. I could find only 2 published books. please send me a personal email if you have other corrections and they will be incorporated.
    - webology 19y ago
      It also might be worth pointing out the community size based on the frameworks. By looking at their respective IRC channels and/or Google Group sizes you can get a rough estimate how big each of their communities are. Overall, I've found any / all python web framework communities to be extremely helpful and friendly. I say that not to take away from the non-python frameworks because I don't have experience with them. I couldn't easily find your email so here is a list instead. These books are out right now: The Definitive Guide to Django: Web Development Done Right: http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-Django-Development-Right/dp/1590597257/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-Django-Development-Ri... Sams Teach Yourself Django in 24 Hours: http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-Django-Hours/dp/067232959X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-5 http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-Django-Hours/dp/06... Professional Python Frameworks: Web 2.0 Programming with Django and Turbogears: http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Python-Frameworks-Programming-Turbogears/dp/0470138092/ref=pd_bbs_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-12 http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Python-Frameworks-Program... Here are two coming out later in the year: Practical Django Projects (June or July 2008): http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Django-Projects-Pratical/dp/1590599969/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-4 http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Django-Projects-Pratical/dp/... Python Web Development with Django (Sep 2008): http://www.amazon.com/Python-Development-Django-Developers-Library/dp/0132356139/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-8 http://www.amazon.com/Python-Development-Django-Developers-L...
      - mdipierro 19y ago
        I updated the document and listed 3. When the other two come out I will update it again. Thanks.
- ivank 19y ago
  I don't develop any sort of web framework or toolkit, so I have no idea which package you mean. I just don't see web2py being extracted from a large successful project, which I think is a partial recipe for success. I'm especially confused, because it's an "enterprise framework", but grown in a university. We already have a full stack web framework with an insane amount of documentation - Django, and I would bet my money on its continued evolution and 1.0 release. If anyone is on the fence, look at the web2py/gluon source code and ask if that's the sort of full stack you see being maintained by a community.
  - mdipierro 19y ago
    "enterprise" does not mean it is developed by an enterprise. It means it was developed for the enterprise. For one thing it means it is stable and always backward compatible. It also means it packages everything you need including support for xmlrpc web services, file streaming, if_modified_since, partial content, distributed transactions, ticketing system, etc.
ardit33 19y ago
ivan, have you actually used it yourself? What did you like/dislike about it? Can you gives us examples? I personally don't like Django that much as it might be an overkill, and I kinda liked web.py, but the documentation is so poor and it misses a lot of features from a proper framework. Maybe web2py is the middle ground, and I will give it a look. Dissmissing something, b/c its source codestyle is not pythonic enough for you, is a pretty shallow argument.
- ivank 19y ago
  I wasn't advocating web.py - emulating its style was just an example of Werkzeug's flexibility. I recommend Django if it fits your application, or rolling your own stack (Werkzeug) if Django doesn't fit. I haven't used web2py because I don't invest time in things I have zero faith in. Edit: full disclosure: I've written code far worse than this (in some ways). I just don't publicly release it and encourage language newbies to build on it.
  - mdipierro 19y ago
    Can you make any specific point so that it can be addressed or are you just ranting as usual? Who is doing marketing here? Since when computer science is about faith?
    - ivank 19y ago
      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling I won't focus on the rest, the reader can judge. Though, I think PEP8 is usually a good start, no matter what the code does.
      - mdipierro 19y ago
        Being a professor who teaches the stuff for a living and grades other people's work, you remind me of that typical PhD student that knows enough to talk about his work but nothing enough in detail to ever graduate. No offense. Let me add that in life is the new things that give you an edge, not those things that everybody knows.

by ivank 19y ago

aitoehigie 19y ago

I beg to disagree, web2py is quite good, at least in my own impression much better that webpy, at least when looking at it from the angle of code documentation and cohesion.

mdipierro 19y ago
Thank you aitoehigie. :-)

mdipierro 19y ago

Are you still upset with web2py because I did not include your package. Com'on. Grow up. web2py is a project grown in a university, it is all but marketing. Unless free good documentation is called marketing. Here is the latest draft manual: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_manual.pdf http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_manual.pdf Here is a preliminary comparison with other frameworks: http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_vs_others.pdf http://mdp.cti.depaul.edu/examples/static/web2py_vs_others.p... (please correct me if I am wrong)

webology 19y ago
I'm not sure about the other frameworks listed but I did notice the following related to Django: - Django's caching supports ram, disk, database, and memcache as well. - Migrations are supported in Django via the 3rd party django_evolution to name one of a few. - Django trunk also has simplejson included. - For documentation there are the online docs, the djangobook.com website, three published books as of today, and at least a few other books coming out in the next few months. My point just being that there is more then just one book.
- mdipierro 19y ago
  I just made many corrections. I could find only 2 published books. please send me a personal email if you have other corrections and they will be incorporated.
  - webology 19y ago
    It also might be worth pointing out the community size based on the frameworks. By looking at their respective IRC channels and/or Google Group sizes you can get a rough estimate how big each of their communities are. Overall, I've found any / all python web framework communities to be extremely helpful and friendly. I say that not to take away from the non-python frameworks because I don't have experience with them. I couldn't easily find your email so here is a list instead. These books are out right now: The Definitive Guide to Django: Web Development Done Right: http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-Django-Development-Right/dp/1590597257/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Guide-Django-Development-Ri... Sams Teach Yourself Django in 24 Hours: http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-Django-Hours/dp/067232959X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-5 http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-Django-Hours/dp/06... Professional Python Frameworks: Web 2.0 Programming with Django and Turbogears: http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Python-Frameworks-Programming-Turbogears/dp/0470138092/ref=pd_bbs_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-12 http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Python-Frameworks-Program... Here are two coming out later in the year: Practical Django Projects (June or July 2008): http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Django-Projects-Pratical/dp/1590599969/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-4 http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Django-Projects-Pratical/dp/... Python Web Development with Django (Sep 2008): http://www.amazon.com/Python-Development-Django-Developers-Library/dp/0132356139/ref=pd_bbs_sr_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209412044&sr=8-8 http://www.amazon.com/Python-Development-Django-Developers-L...
    - mdipierro 19y ago
      I updated the document and listed 3. When the other two come out I will update it again. Thanks.
ivank 19y ago
I don't develop any sort of web framework or toolkit, so I have no idea which package you mean. I just don't see web2py being extracted from a large successful project, which I think is a partial recipe for success. I'm especially confused, because it's an "enterprise framework", but grown in a university. We already have a full stack web framework with an insane amount of documentation - Django, and I would bet my money on its continued evolution and 1.0 release. If anyone is on the fence, look at the web2py/gluon source code and ask if that's the sort of full stack you see being maintained by a community.
- mdipierro 19y ago
  "enterprise" does not mean it is developed by an enterprise. It means it was developed for the enterprise. For one thing it means it is stable and always backward compatible. It also means it packages everything you need including support for xmlrpc web services, file streaming, if_modified_since, partial content, distributed transactions, ticketing system, etc.

ardit33 19y ago

ivan, have you actually used it yourself? What did you like/dislike about it? Can you gives us examples? I personally don't like Django that much as it might be an overkill, and I kinda liked web.py, but the documentation is so poor and it misses a lot of features from a proper framework. Maybe web2py is the middle ground, and I will give it a look. Dissmissing something, b/c its source codestyle is not pythonic enough for you, is a pretty shallow argument.

ivank 19y ago
I wasn't advocating web.py - emulating its style was just an example of Werkzeug's flexibility. I recommend Django if it fits your application, or rolling your own stack (Werkzeug) if Django doesn't fit. I haven't used web2py because I don't invest time in things I have zero faith in. Edit: full disclosure: I've written code far worse than this (in some ways). I just don't publicly release it and encourage language newbies to build on it.
- mdipierro 19y ago
  Can you make any specific point so that it can be addressed or are you just ranting as usual? Who is doing marketing here? Since when computer science is about faith?
  - ivank 19y ago
    http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SoftwareDevelopmentIsGambling I won't focus on the rest, the reader can judge. Though, I think PEP8 is usually a good start, no matter what the code does.
    - mdipierro 19y ago
      Being a professor who teaches the stuff for a living and grades other people's work, you remind me of that typical PhD student that knows enough to talk about his work but nothing enough in detail to ever graduate. No offense. Let me add that in life is the new things that give you an edge, not those things that everybody knows.