4 ms·

> "Switching away from Android could provide Google the opportunity to hit the reset button on any mistakes they believe they made a decade ago,". "They might b

> "Switching away from Android could provide Google the opportunity to hit the reset button on any mistakes they believe they made a decade ago,". "They might be able to regain some power that they’ve ceded to device manufacturers and telecom carriers." How making a new OS achive this? What kind of problems Fuchsia could solve when Linux can’t solve? I personally hope Fuchsia would remain as an experimental project. A new non-GPL OS by a big player like Google is a bad news for hardware dev and enthusiasts from XDA. This will make hardware driver developments more fragmented and closed-source. Smartphone manufacturers are trying to hide their kernel and device drivers, even they are using Linux. Imagine there are no legal restrictions to hide those.

kyrra 8y ago
One of Android's major headaches is that Linux does not have a stable driver interface. Interfaces within linux change regularly, but only drivers that are checked into the main tree are updated. If you maintain a driver outside of that tree, you will experience pain. That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed (and why doing OS updates for phones was so hard). Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0], which will make many more phones get OS updates going forward. So Android has attempted to work around one of linux major problems. Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures. It's design and focus continues to go that way. This has impact across an entire range of functionality that an OS is supposed to bring. Fuschia seems to be a research project with a focus on mobile/laptop type devices. It could care less about server type environments, which lets it make different tradeoffs in design. [0] https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/ https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/
- endorphone 8y ago
  "That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed " Android changed Linux kernels with every single release, from 2.6.27 to 4.10 by core release, and vendors often update kernels incrementally in between. Any driver issues are trivial to change presuming they didn't come in a binary blob and the source refused any further changes, which is supposedly the case with Qualcomm hardware in the Nexus 6, for instance. "Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0]" Treble is about the intra-Android interfaces, not Linux device interfaces. This is about Google doing large scale, breaking changes that made vendors just throw up their hands. "Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures" Nope. The reality is that everyone always thinks they can rebuild it better. Second (Third, Fourth, etc) system effect. It the very basis of NIH syndrome. So some small group at Google wants to research OS'. Whatever. The likelihood that this replaces Android, or that it is in anyone's imaginations that it actually will besides content writers outside of Google, seems very low.
- shock 8y ago
  > Interfaces within linux change regularly, but only drivers that are checked into the main tree are updated. This is why all of the Google's code sits in one big repo (reportedly). It allows them to refactor all dependent code at once when changing interfaces.
blihp 8y ago
> How making a new OS achive this? What kind of problems Fuchsia could solve when Linux can’t solve? The problems they are likely trying to solve are business and legal, not technical. Pesky things like not having to release keys bits of code under a 'free' license (i.e. they have no choice but to release any changes to the Linux kernel under GPL as that's what it requires.) Sure, they'll probably still release large chunks of source code (possibly under MIT/BSD, possibly under a less liberal license) but keep strategic bits closed source. Right now they have to do this via the clunky and somewhat obvious Google Play services layer. And then there's the constant potential exposure to lawsuits. etc. By being able to decide on what pieces would be released under what licenses, it would allow them to prevent competitors from following in their footsteps as Amazon and various Chinese companies have done with Android. Things like this are the reason Samsung (one of Google's largest problems) keep pushing forward with their Tizen platform so that when the shift comes they have the ability to sidestep it if they want to.
- CrI0gen 8y ago
  I'm really suprised the article didn't mention anything about Tizen. For Google, Tizen looks like a big issue. At some point in the future, their biggest hardware seller, Samsung, will start switching all of their devices to running on Tizen and other partners in the Tizen Association (from wikipedia) are Fujitsu, Huawei, Intel, KT, NEC Casio, NTT DoCoMo, Orange, Panasonic, Samsung, SK Telecom, Sprint. Google's going to have to get very aggressive with Fuchsia to compete with Tizen.
  - kbumsik 8y ago
    Tizen has been 6 years now and there is almost zero percentage of smartphone market and it has become only for Samsung products (look at the association list. Huawei is the only big consumer device company). This would never threat Google.
danmatte 8y ago
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/software/a-modern-os-from-google https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/software/a-mod... There's basically nothing new in the Bloomberg article.
on_and_off 8y ago
no stable driver interface, they are still learning how to cope with this. There is a ton of cruft in the APIs, like any large project would have. One of the engineer in the Android framework team described creating APIs as generating future regrets. Some of the mistakes are pretty small. Like internally the system reuse drawable instances in order to save memory, but instead of making this process entirely automatic, before calling let's say `setTint(color)`, you need to call `mutate()` so the UI framework spins a copy of the drawable for you. it would have been easy to integrate this behavior by default without having you know about mutate but since it was done differently, this behavior has been preserved in order to do not break retrocompatibility. There are many small API issues like this. Big issues of course are corrected but often preserve the old behavior in case you are targetting an old version of the OS. The View system is incredibly complex. Some of it is due to the inherent complexity of the problem, but some of it is due to the constraints of the time and some decisions that could have been better. So there are many things you can improve by restarting from scratch and it is often easier than having to deal with the legacy APIs too.
- menckenjr 8y ago
  Then, of course, there's this: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    I would argue there's a difference between "rewriting the project" and "building something new based on additional decades of experience in the domain". Taken too literally, your comment suggests we should never e.g. write a new filesystem. Should Apple have taken Joel's advice and stuck with HFS+ forever? Sometimes the world changes enough that you can't keep grafting onto the old system, and need a new one. I don't know if Linux/Fuchsia meets those criteria, but given that there are extremely smart people at Google working on it, I would think that it's at least plausible.
    - on_and_off 8y ago
AmericanChopper 8y ago
>What kind of problems Fuchsia could solve when Linux can’t solve? I doubt this is really a big deal for Google, but a capabilities based OS lends itself a bit better to the mobile OS security model.
jacksmith21006 8y ago
Linux kernel is now over 15 million lines of code. Zircon the Fuchsia kernel is about 10k lines of code. But also Google is taking a PoLP approach from the ground up. They have also implemented capability based security and addressing. Really Fuchsia is an OS for today. It is time for things to move beyond Linux. Huge fan but it has now been over 25 years and was not built for the computer architecture of today. Do hope Google also creates a CPU optimized for Fuchsia. PoLP - Principle of Least Privilege.

kyrra 8y ago

One of Android's major headaches is that Linux does not have a stable driver interface. Interfaces within linux change regularly, but only drivers that are checked into the main tree are updated. If you maintain a driver outside of that tree, you will experience pain. That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed (and why doing OS updates for phones was so hard). Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0], which will make many more phones get OS updates going forward. So Android has attempted to work around one of linux major problems. Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures. It's design and focus continues to go that way. This has impact across an entire range of functionality that an OS is supposed to bring. Fuschia seems to be a research project with a focus on mobile/laptop type devices. It could care less about server type environments, which lets it make different tradeoffs in design. [0] https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/ https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/

endorphone 8y ago
"That's how Android operated and why it's linux kernel rarely changed " Android changed Linux kernels with every single release, from 2.6.27 to 4.10 by core release, and vendors often update kernels incrementally in between. Any driver issues are trivial to change presuming they didn't come in a binary blob and the source refused any further changes, which is supposedly the case with Qualcomm hardware in the Nexus 6, for instance. "Android has been trying to fix this with treble[0]" Treble is about the intra-Android interfaces, not Linux device interfaces. This is about Google doing large scale, breaking changes that made vendors just throw up their hands. "Another large problem is that Linux was designed for desktop architectures" Nope. The reality is that everyone always thinks they can rebuild it better. Second (Third, Fourth, etc) system effect. It the very basis of NIH syndrome. So some small group at Google wants to research OS'. Whatever. The likelihood that this replaces Android, or that it is in anyone's imaginations that it actually will besides content writers outside of Google, seems very low.
shock 8y ago
> Interfaces within linux change regularly, but only drivers that are checked into the main tree are updated. This is why all of the Google's code sits in one big repo (reportedly). It allows them to refactor all dependent code at once when changing interfaces.

blihp 8y ago

> How making a new OS achive this? What kind of problems Fuchsia could solve when Linux can’t solve? The problems they are likely trying to solve are business and legal, not technical. Pesky things like not having to release keys bits of code under a 'free' license (i.e. they have no choice but to release any changes to the Linux kernel under GPL as that's what it requires.) Sure, they'll probably still release large chunks of source code (possibly under MIT/BSD, possibly under a less liberal license) but keep strategic bits closed source. Right now they have to do this via the clunky and somewhat obvious Google Play services layer. And then there's the constant potential exposure to lawsuits. etc. By being able to decide on what pieces would be released under what licenses, it would allow them to prevent competitors from following in their footsteps as Amazon and various Chinese companies have done with Android. Things like this are the reason Samsung (one of Google's largest problems) keep pushing forward with their Tizen platform so that when the shift comes they have the ability to sidestep it if they want to.

CrI0gen 8y ago
I'm really suprised the article didn't mention anything about Tizen. For Google, Tizen looks like a big issue. At some point in the future, their biggest hardware seller, Samsung, will start switching all of their devices to running on Tizen and other partners in the Tizen Association (from wikipedia) are Fujitsu, Huawei, Intel, KT, NEC Casio, NTT DoCoMo, Orange, Panasonic, Samsung, SK Telecom, Sprint. Google's going to have to get very aggressive with Fuchsia to compete with Tizen.
- kbumsik 8y ago
  Tizen has been 6 years now and there is almost zero percentage of smartphone market and it has become only for Samsung products (look at the association list. Huawei is the only big consumer device company). This would never threat Google.

danmatte 8y ago

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/software/a-modern-os-from-google https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/software/a-mod... There's basically nothing new in the Bloomberg article.

on_and_off 8y ago

no stable driver interface, they are still learning how to cope with this. There is a ton of cruft in the APIs, like any large project would have. One of the engineer in the Android framework team described creating APIs as generating future regrets. Some of the mistakes are pretty small. Like internally the system reuse drawable instances in order to save memory, but instead of making this process entirely automatic, before calling let's say `setTint(color)`, you need to call `mutate()` so the UI framework spins a copy of the drawable for you. it would have been easy to integrate this behavior by default without having you know about mutate but since it was done differently, this behavior has been preserved in order to do not break retrocompatibility. There are many small API issues like this. Big issues of course are corrected but often preserve the old behavior in case you are targetting an old version of the OS. The View system is incredibly complex. Some of it is due to the inherent complexity of the problem, but some of it is due to the constraints of the time and some decisions that could have been better. So there are many things you can improve by restarting from scratch and it is often easier than having to deal with the legacy APIs too.

menckenjr 8y ago
Then, of course, there's this: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  I would argue there's a difference between "rewriting the project" and "building something new based on additional decades of experience in the domain". Taken too literally, your comment suggests we should never e.g. write a new filesystem. Should Apple have taken Joel's advice and stuck with HFS+ forever? Sometimes the world changes enough that you can't keep grafting onto the old system, and need a new one. I don't know if Linux/Fuchsia meets those criteria, but given that there are extremely smart people at Google working on it, I would think that it's at least plausible.
  - on_and_off 8y ago

AmericanChopper 8y ago

>What kind of problems Fuchsia could solve when Linux can’t solve? I doubt this is really a big deal for Google, but a capabilities based OS lends itself a bit better to the mobile OS security model.

jacksmith21006 8y ago

Linux kernel is now over 15 million lines of code. Zircon the Fuchsia kernel is about 10k lines of code. But also Google is taking a PoLP approach from the ground up. They have also implemented capability based security and addressing. Really Fuchsia is an OS for today. It is time for things to move beyond Linux. Huge fan but it has now been over 25 years and was not built for the computer architecture of today. Do hope Google also creates a CPU optimized for Fuchsia. PoLP - Principle of Least Privilege.