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While I understand that the law is not required to be a mathematical statement and requires case by case interpretation, I wonder if these leaves several burnin

While I understand that the law is not required to be a mathematical statement and requires case by case interpretation, I wonder if these leaves several burning questions on the table: 1. Was it illegal for apple to force install apple maps on iOS users, stiffling competing maps apps? 2. Is it illegal for apple to not provide other browsers JIT capabilities, effectively forcing them to be a skin on top of Safari? I understand that iOS has no market dominance. But if iOS reaches 60% shares in a country, can the country demand substantial changes to iOS to encourage competitors? 70%? 80%?. Does a company need to make its product more open as it starts dominating the market. Also, how would such market segments be defined for market domination? Phones? Smart phones? Phones with a particular characteristics? Phones with a particular OS(as phone inter operability is widely within OSes only) As the press release of the commission says "market for .... licensable smart mobile operating systems and app stores for the Android mobile operating system.". It seems using this vocabulary even Apple can be branded a monopoly, dominant in "unlicensable smart mobile operating systems and app stores for the iOS mobile operating system". Then isn't even apple using their dominance of "app store for iOS" to dominate other market segments?

cageface 8y ago
As Apple enthusiasts love to point out, a huge chunk of Android sales are low end feature phone replacements. If you exclude those then the two platforms are much closer to parity in marketshare. And Android's hold is precarious. Pretty much only Samsung is making any money on Android and even they are seeing declining sales for their flagship phones. I'm convinced if Apple ever offers a decent (not iPhone SE) iPhone at around the $300 price point it will be a bloodbath for Android OEMs. I'm convinced this decision will one day seen as a mistake by the EC. Hopefully it won't destroy what is a now a healthy & competitive marketplace with a lot of meaningful choice for consumers.
- enitihas 8y ago
  Exactly, this decision will benefit apple a lot, as they would be free to integrate their platform and offerings in all sorts of ways, continuing to charge their premium, where as the "dominant" mobile OS will have to keep itself open and not force anything on users or makers.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > this decision will benefit apple a lot I don't see how "unt[ying] the Play Store from Search and the Chrome browser," stopping "paying OEMs for portfolio-wide search exclusivity," or letting OEMs sell "devices with Android forks" helps Apple that much [1]. Android will still exist. Play Services and Store will remain Google's castles. OEMs will continue selling Google's bundle. All that changes is now they don't have to. Worst case, Google adds a Play Services licensing fee. If this doesn't result in American antitrust action (for raising prices after forming a monopoly), all it will do is increase some phones' prices. If that matters to consumers, OEMs will be free to release non-Play Android phones at a lower price point. [1] Stratchery
    - enitihas 8y ago
      Sadly, the worst case is not google charging some fee. The worst case is that iOS can become the only mobile os with deep platform integration(apple music, safari, apple maps, app store), where as Android will become more fragmented. Part of the appeal of iOS is the seamless experience among all iOS devices. If your cousin has an iOS device, you can turn to him/her for help. You can seamlessly buy an iOS device and assume more or less the same experience. Android? Your cousin's Android may share nothing with yours, and so may your next Android phone with your current. You may not count on the same browser, assistant, mail, or maps being available in all Android devices. You may argue that people will be sure to differentiate between Android A and Android B, but sadly, people have enough going on in their lives and want their phone to just work. Guess which OS provided the most consistent experience among devices and the most homogeneous app ecosystem? From what I have learned with my interactions with non tech friends of mine, they don't want to know why such and such app is better than the default one. They just want things to look and feel the same and just work as long as possible. You can argue that android already had custom skins on most brand's phones, but at least some platform apps used to be common. This may change even that.
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > Android will become more fragmented There are deeper factors driving homogenization than Google Play Services. Those will probably remain, driving most Android users to a single fork. What this ruling does is make it possible that the next Android isn't dominated by Google.
- paganel 8y ago
  iPhone SE is a more than decent phone, I’ve paid around 330 euros this winter for one, it does its job pretty damn well (good photo camera, reasonable hard-disk space, I do not perceive it as slow).
  - cageface 8y ago
    Yeah the SE is not a bad phone but most users want something larger. A cheap iPhone at least as large as a 6 would sell in huge numbers.
- earenndil 8y ago
  > if Apple ever offers a decent (not iPhone SE) iPhone What's not decent about the SE?
krn 8y ago
> But if iOS reaches 60% shares in a country, can the country demand substantial changes to iOS to encourage competitors? In fact, iOS market share in Switzerland is 65%[1]. It's also more than 51% in Norway, Sweden, Canada and Australia. [1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/switzerland http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/switzerland
- skrowl 8y ago
  How are they escaping EU regulation about monopoly bundling (basically all the same things Google is accused of in this judgement?) They basically do the same thing (sometimes to an even greater extent) when it comes to bundling their own software with their hardware.
  - krn 8y ago
    Apple can bundle whatever software it wants with its own hardware, as long as it doesn't force other companies to do the same. Had Google stayed within its own Nexus / Pixel lines, were wouldn't have been any fines.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    Because the issue is when you force those terms on other OEMs. Apple is doing nothing of the sort.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
No, because in these instances, it's Google forcing the other OEMs to bundle or not bundle things. Apple has no other OEMs, thus they're not competing with their other manufacturers.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Google doesn’t force OEMs to use Android, they are free to develop their own OS.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    That's not a valid rebuttal. In order to use the Play Store, Google is requiring that OEMs bundle many other Google apps. That is abusing a position in one area to benefit themselves in another anti-competititively.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Ofc it is, no one is forcing them to use the Google app store either. The last Android phone I bought in the UK had 4 play stores installed on it, Google, Samsung, Amazon and some other BS I don't remember. This is just getting disingenuous you'll have huge posts claiming that you don't need gapps and that f-droid works just perfectly, the vast majority of Android phones are sold without gapps or the google store that is Africa, China, India and parts of Latin America, somehow all of these including arguably the 2 largest single markets get along just fine without it.
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        "no one is forcing them to use the Google app store either." Again, not a valid rebuttal. Just because someone doesn't have to use your product (and in this case, I would flat out disagree with your statement) does not mean you get to gouge them on the terms.
        dogma1138 8y ago

cageface 8y ago

As Apple enthusiasts love to point out, a huge chunk of Android sales are low end feature phone replacements. If you exclude those then the two platforms are much closer to parity in marketshare. And Android's hold is precarious. Pretty much only Samsung is making any money on Android and even they are seeing declining sales for their flagship phones. I'm convinced if Apple ever offers a decent (not iPhone SE) iPhone at around the $300 price point it will be a bloodbath for Android OEMs. I'm convinced this decision will one day seen as a mistake by the EC. Hopefully it won't destroy what is a now a healthy & competitive marketplace with a lot of meaningful choice for consumers.

enitihas 8y ago
Exactly, this decision will benefit apple a lot, as they would be free to integrate their platform and offerings in all sorts of ways, continuing to charge their premium, where as the "dominant" mobile OS will have to keep itself open and not force anything on users or makers.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > this decision will benefit apple a lot I don't see how "unt[ying] the Play Store from Search and the Chrome browser," stopping "paying OEMs for portfolio-wide search exclusivity," or letting OEMs sell "devices with Android forks" helps Apple that much [1]. Android will still exist. Play Services and Store will remain Google's castles. OEMs will continue selling Google's bundle. All that changes is now they don't have to. Worst case, Google adds a Play Services licensing fee. If this doesn't result in American antitrust action (for raising prices after forming a monopoly), all it will do is increase some phones' prices. If that matters to consumers, OEMs will be free to release non-Play Android phones at a lower price point. [1] Stratchery
  - enitihas 8y ago
    Sadly, the worst case is not google charging some fee. The worst case is that iOS can become the only mobile os with deep platform integration(apple music, safari, apple maps, app store), where as Android will become more fragmented. Part of the appeal of iOS is the seamless experience among all iOS devices. If your cousin has an iOS device, you can turn to him/her for help. You can seamlessly buy an iOS device and assume more or less the same experience. Android? Your cousin's Android may share nothing with yours, and so may your next Android phone with your current. You may not count on the same browser, assistant, mail, or maps being available in all Android devices. You may argue that people will be sure to differentiate between Android A and Android B, but sadly, people have enough going on in their lives and want their phone to just work. Guess which OS provided the most consistent experience among devices and the most homogeneous app ecosystem? From what I have learned with my interactions with non tech friends of mine, they don't want to know why such and such app is better than the default one. They just want things to look and feel the same and just work as long as possible. You can argue that android already had custom skins on most brand's phones, but at least some platform apps used to be common. This may change even that.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > Android will become more fragmented There are deeper factors driving homogenization than Google Play Services. Those will probably remain, driving most Android users to a single fork. What this ruling does is make it possible that the next Android isn't dominated by Google.
paganel 8y ago
iPhone SE is a more than decent phone, I’ve paid around 330 euros this winter for one, it does its job pretty damn well (good photo camera, reasonable hard-disk space, I do not perceive it as slow).
- cageface 8y ago
  Yeah the SE is not a bad phone but most users want something larger. A cheap iPhone at least as large as a 6 would sell in huge numbers.
earenndil 8y ago
> if Apple ever offers a decent (not iPhone SE) iPhone What's not decent about the SE?

krn 8y ago

> But if iOS reaches 60% shares in a country, can the country demand substantial changes to iOS to encourage competitors? In fact, iOS market share in Switzerland is 65%[1]. It's also more than 51% in Norway, Sweden, Canada and Australia. [1] http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/switzerland http://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/switzerland

skrowl 8y ago
How are they escaping EU regulation about monopoly bundling (basically all the same things Google is accused of in this judgement?) They basically do the same thing (sometimes to an even greater extent) when it comes to bundling their own software with their hardware.
- krn 8y ago
  Apple can bundle whatever software it wants with its own hardware, as long as it doesn't force other companies to do the same. Had Google stayed within its own Nexus / Pixel lines, were wouldn't have been any fines.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Because the issue is when you force those terms on other OEMs. Apple is doing nothing of the sort.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

No, because in these instances, it's Google forcing the other OEMs to bundle or not bundle things. Apple has no other OEMs, thus they're not competing with their other manufacturers.

dogma1138 8y ago
Google doesn’t force OEMs to use Android, they are free to develop their own OS.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  That's not a valid rebuttal. In order to use the Play Store, Google is requiring that OEMs bundle many other Google apps. That is abusing a position in one area to benefit themselves in another anti-competititively.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    Ofc it is, no one is forcing them to use the Google app store either. The last Android phone I bought in the UK had 4 play stores installed on it, Google, Samsung, Amazon and some other BS I don't remember. This is just getting disingenuous you'll have huge posts claiming that you don't need gapps and that f-droid works just perfectly, the vast majority of Android phones are sold without gapps or the google store that is Africa, China, India and parts of Latin America, somehow all of these including arguably the 2 largest single markets get along just fine without it.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      "no one is forcing them to use the Google app store either." Again, not a valid rebuttal. Just because someone doesn't have to use your product (and in this case, I would flat out disagree with your statement) does not mean you get to gouge them on the terms.
      - dogma1138 8y ago