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> Millions. Of. People. Write. Python. That. Affects. The. Lives. Of. Billions. Of. People. Start there. I don't think this is how open source development work

> Millions. Of. People. Write. Python. That. Affects. The. Lives. Of. Billions. Of. People. Start there. I don't think this is how open source development works. Probably most of the core contributors are doing it for pleasure, not for satisfying the needs of the users.

spenrose 8y ago
Thanks, that's a much improved way of expressing my point.
newen 8y ago
This idea that are large and influential project like Python is just the same as a hobby project I put on github and do in my spare time is ridculous. I am pretty sure most of the core contributors of Python are doing it as part of their 9-5 job. Then there is the implication that because they are doing it for pleasure, they don't owe anything to anyone. It's ridculous. This software affects millions of people and it's not a dumb hobby project.
- msla 8y ago
  > Then there is the implication that because they are doing it for pleasure, they don't owe anything to anyone. It's ridculous. This software affects millions of people and it's not a dumb hobby project. ... no more ridiculous than the idea that software which millions of people depend on should be a commercial product, or a government project, and beholden to the politics of CEOs and/or government bureaucrats.
- xj9 8y ago
  actually, by using Python you explicitly agree that PSF doesn't owe you anything :) https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/LICENSE 4. PSF is making Python available to Licensee on an "AS IS" basis. PSF MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, BUT NOT LIMITATION, PSF MAKES NO AND DISCLAIMS ANY REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR THAT THE USE OF PYTHON WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. 5. PSF SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO LICENSEE OR ANY OTHER USERS OF PYTHON FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR LOSS AS A RESULT OF MODIFYING, DISTRIBUTING, OR OTHERWISE USING PYTHON, OR ANY DERIVATIVE THEREOF, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY THEREOF.
  - newen 8y ago
    I'm talking about social responsibilities. Not about legal liabilities. If there is not implied social responsibility that PSF keeps python running, then no one will be using it.
    - megaman22 8y ago
      Why? As long as python.exe runs code, people will use it. And there's too much money invested in it for people that have done so to let it just die.
      - newen 8y ago
        Because PSF says they will support Python? What happens when there is a bug? You fork Python? PSF gets 3 million in revenue per year. Where do you think the money goes? Python is not a hobby project.
- whyever 8y ago
  If it is part of their day job, the responsibility is towards their employer, not their users. The millions of users are usually providing nothing in return for the software, I don't see how that entitles them to anything. In fact, I think it is the user's responsibility to make sure the software is appropriate for their use.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
That works for the rinky dink little file browser you put up on Github. It does not work for a project of this scale. Any core contributor who is unwilling to consider that point and treat this like a professional needs to step down, now.
- skybrian 8y ago
  Wow, that's entitled. Did you know that Python has a money-back guarantee?
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    No. For something of this nature, it is not entitlement to expect the people working on the core team to treat it like a professional. The entitlement comes when you believe that you can take a project like this, that millions of people are using to affect billions more, and treat it like a little hobby project.
    - skybrian 8y ago
      Open source code is a gift. You don't have any right to demand this of them, and neither does anyone else. (What could possibly give you this right?) If the governance of an open source project is bad enough, the way to fix it is to get a group of people together to maintain a fork. (Companies that depend on open source software can and will maintain their own branches.)
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        "Open source code is a gift." And the ability to work on it is a gift, too. If you're not going to take working on something as high profile as Python seriously, if you're just going to treat it as a hobby, then do everyone a favor and don't bother. "You don't have any right to demand this of them" As a user of Python, I absolutely do.
        skybrian 8y ago

spenrose 8y ago

Thanks, that's a much improved way of expressing my point.

newen 8y ago

This idea that are large and influential project like Python is just the same as a hobby project I put on github and do in my spare time is ridculous. I am pretty sure most of the core contributors of Python are doing it as part of their 9-5 job. Then there is the implication that because they are doing it for pleasure, they don't owe anything to anyone. It's ridculous. This software affects millions of people and it's not a dumb hobby project.

msla 8y ago
> Then there is the implication that because they are doing it for pleasure, they don't owe anything to anyone. It's ridculous. This software affects millions of people and it's not a dumb hobby project. ... no more ridiculous than the idea that software which millions of people depend on should be a commercial product, or a government project, and beholden to the politics of CEOs and/or government bureaucrats.
xj9 8y ago
actually, by using Python you explicitly agree that PSF doesn't owe you anything :) https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/master/LICENSE 4. PSF is making Python available to Licensee on an "AS IS" basis. PSF MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, BUT NOT LIMITATION, PSF MAKES NO AND DISCLAIMS ANY REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR THAT THE USE OF PYTHON WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. 5. PSF SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO LICENSEE OR ANY OTHER USERS OF PYTHON FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR LOSS AS A RESULT OF MODIFYING, DISTRIBUTING, OR OTHERWISE USING PYTHON, OR ANY DERIVATIVE THEREOF, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY THEREOF.
- newen 8y ago
  I'm talking about social responsibilities. Not about legal liabilities. If there is not implied social responsibility that PSF keeps python running, then no one will be using it.
  - megaman22 8y ago
    Why? As long as python.exe runs code, people will use it. And there's too much money invested in it for people that have done so to let it just die.
    - newen 8y ago
      Because PSF says they will support Python? What happens when there is a bug? You fork Python? PSF gets 3 million in revenue per year. Where do you think the money goes? Python is not a hobby project.
whyever 8y ago
If it is part of their day job, the responsibility is towards their employer, not their users. The millions of users are usually providing nothing in return for the software, I don't see how that entitles them to anything. In fact, I think it is the user's responsibility to make sure the software is appropriate for their use.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

That works for the rinky dink little file browser you put up on Github. It does not work for a project of this scale. Any core contributor who is unwilling to consider that point and treat this like a professional needs to step down, now.

skybrian 8y ago
Wow, that's entitled. Did you know that Python has a money-back guarantee?
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  No. For something of this nature, it is not entitlement to expect the people working on the core team to treat it like a professional. The entitlement comes when you believe that you can take a project like this, that millions of people are using to affect billions more, and treat it like a little hobby project.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Open source code is a gift. You don't have any right to demand this of them, and neither does anyone else. (What could possibly give you this right?) If the governance of an open source project is bad enough, the way to fix it is to get a group of people together to maintain a fork. (Companies that depend on open source software can and will maintain their own branches.)
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      "Open source code is a gift." And the ability to work on it is a gift, too. If you're not going to take working on something as high profile as Python seriously, if you're just going to treat it as a hobby, then do everyone a favor and don't bother. "You don't have any right to demand this of them" As a user of Python, I absolutely do.
      - skybrian 8y ago