7 ms·

They have been used for almost a 100 years in Russia with great efficiency. Our inability to use phage therapy here is due to terrible incentives created by int

by wycs 8y ago

They have been used for almost a 100 years in Russia with great efficiency. Our inability to use phage therapy here is due to terrible incentives created by intellectual “property” laws and regulations that assume standardized treatmentments.

jakob223 8y ago
Can you link to some information on that?
- ddeck 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy#History
- rando444 8y ago
  This is my favorite documentary on the subject: https://archive.org/details/BBCHorizonS1997e13TheVirusThatCures https://archive.org/details/BBCHorizonS1997e13TheVirusThatCu...
  - poisonarena 8y ago
    Love this, watched this in my micro bio class ages ago!
Fomite 8y ago
It's not just regulation. They're also not very good - there's a reason antibiotics won (we used to use phage in the West too - they developed a dangerous reputation because we weren't good at purification). Russia used them because antibiotic availability was constrained. A post on this from a day or so ago, my usual take on phage, from the standpoint of someone who works in healthcare epidemiology and has always been fond of phage therapy: 1) Even with resistance on the rise, we still have antibiotics that work. Phage therapy is a "someday we're going to need this...we think" type treatment. 2) There's no such thing as a "broad spectrum" phage. They're organism specific, and that means not only would you need to keep a phage library on hand, but you'd have to do a lot of diagnostic tests. That's going to be both expensive and tricky. 3) Phages are living things. Not only is that a weird regulatory framework to be in for a drug, but it also means that you need to be able to keep phage alive. In contrast, antibiotics are inert. 4) Phage therapy is also relatively new in the West, which means there's just less of a R&D infrastructure behind it. There have been people working on commercializing phage therapy since I was in undergrad (I'm now a tenure-track professor). The problem is it's hard, and antibiotics are so much better as a treatment that there's kind of a ceiling on the excitement that they can generate.
- zaarn 8y ago
  Re 1) It is useful to keep exploring other means of treatment because at some point you won't have antibiotics left. You want a secondary method that can be deployed instantly once the primary fails. Currently cryptographs are developing Quantum-Computer-resistant cryptographic algorithms not because there is a quantum computer that can crack RSA but because a quantum computer that can is in the not to distant future and if it exists then we need immediate replacement. Re 2) I don't think that would be a problem considering together with 1 there will simply be a need to develop a quick but reliable method to test for which collection of phages work, probably even develop cocktails of phages for a more broad application. Reducing the amount of antibiotics used would also help reduce the risk of the broad spectrum antibiotic failing because of resistant bacteria. 3) Phages are living things depending on who you ask. Phages are rather simple and will to my knowledge remain viable for a good and long time. Antibiotics may be inert but also have an expiration date, you can't just use an 60yo antibiotic and hope that works. At some point the contents of the antibiotic will have broken down and oxidized. 4)Fair but apparently people have been using it in the Eastern Block for a while with some success. There are some shoulders to stand on and continue R&D.
  - varjag 8y ago
    1) It's a lot cheaper to have antibiotics properly regulated and conservatively prescribed. That's how Norway still manages to do just fine with Penicillin in majority of cases. Voila, no need for phages. 4) USSR jumped onto antibiotics as soon as they were available, and hasn't really looked back.
    - telchar 8y ago
      1) Can you get the industrialized farm lobbies on board with this? How about 3rd world rural clinics? How about 3rd world farmers using powerful antibiotics of last resort to make animals get a little bigger? Successfully regulating antibiotics is a worldwide effort. I'm not confident we'll ever be more than moderately successful at that.
      - 8y ago

by wycs 8y ago

jakob223 8y ago

Can you link to some information on that?

ddeck 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy#History
rando444 8y ago
This is my favorite documentary on the subject: https://archive.org/details/BBCHorizonS1997e13TheVirusThatCures https://archive.org/details/BBCHorizonS1997e13TheVirusThatCu...
- poisonarena 8y ago
  Love this, watched this in my micro bio class ages ago!

Fomite 8y ago

It's not just regulation. They're also not very good - there's a reason antibiotics won (we used to use phage in the West too - they developed a dangerous reputation because we weren't good at purification). Russia used them because antibiotic availability was constrained. A post on this from a day or so ago, my usual take on phage, from the standpoint of someone who works in healthcare epidemiology and has always been fond of phage therapy: 1) Even with resistance on the rise, we still have antibiotics that work. Phage therapy is a "someday we're going to need this...we think" type treatment. 2) There's no such thing as a "broad spectrum" phage. They're organism specific, and that means not only would you need to keep a phage library on hand, but you'd have to do a lot of diagnostic tests. That's going to be both expensive and tricky. 3) Phages are living things. Not only is that a weird regulatory framework to be in for a drug, but it also means that you need to be able to keep phage alive. In contrast, antibiotics are inert. 4) Phage therapy is also relatively new in the West, which means there's just less of a R&D infrastructure behind it. There have been people working on commercializing phage therapy since I was in undergrad (I'm now a tenure-track professor). The problem is it's hard, and antibiotics are so much better as a treatment that there's kind of a ceiling on the excitement that they can generate.

zaarn 8y ago
Re 1) It is useful to keep exploring other means of treatment because at some point you won't have antibiotics left. You want a secondary method that can be deployed instantly once the primary fails. Currently cryptographs are developing Quantum-Computer-resistant cryptographic algorithms not because there is a quantum computer that can crack RSA but because a quantum computer that can is in the not to distant future and if it exists then we need immediate replacement. Re 2) I don't think that would be a problem considering together with 1 there will simply be a need to develop a quick but reliable method to test for which collection of phages work, probably even develop cocktails of phages for a more broad application. Reducing the amount of antibiotics used would also help reduce the risk of the broad spectrum antibiotic failing because of resistant bacteria. 3) Phages are living things depending on who you ask. Phages are rather simple and will to my knowledge remain viable for a good and long time. Antibiotics may be inert but also have an expiration date, you can't just use an 60yo antibiotic and hope that works. At some point the contents of the antibiotic will have broken down and oxidized. 4)Fair but apparently people have been using it in the Eastern Block for a while with some success. There are some shoulders to stand on and continue R&D.
- varjag 8y ago
  1) It's a lot cheaper to have antibiotics properly regulated and conservatively prescribed. That's how Norway still manages to do just fine with Penicillin in majority of cases. Voila, no need for phages. 4) USSR jumped onto antibiotics as soon as they were available, and hasn't really looked back.
  - telchar 8y ago
    1) Can you get the industrialized farm lobbies on board with this? How about 3rd world rural clinics? How about 3rd world farmers using powerful antibiotics of last resort to make animals get a little bigger? Successfully regulating antibiotics is a worldwide effort. I'm not confident we'll ever be more than moderately successful at that.
    - 8y ago