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"Popular success really is more art than science" Given that the last decade of hits can be hugely attributed to only 2 people in the industry, I have a hard t

"Popular success really is more art than science" Given that the last decade of hits can be hugely attributed to only 2 people in the industry, I have a hard time buying this one. Max Martin (https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin) famously manufactured hits for Britney Spears, Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, Katy Perry, Ariana Grande, Justin Timberlake, Maroon 5, Pink, Avril Lavigne, Christina Aguilera, Kesha and The Backstreet Boys. Between 1999 and 2016 alone, he was responsible for 21 hits. That's more than one a year without any pause. Lukasz Gottwald (https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Luke https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Luke) did the rest So unless karma made them really lucky, there is some kind of formula, and they figured it out. Talent alone can't account for this, as they are, all in all, more successfull than the Beatles or Michael Jackson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVME_l4IwII

21 8y ago
You could say the same thing about Picasso, or Leonardo da Vinci. Did they figure out some kind of formula?
- analog31 8y ago
  They may have thought so. One approach to creativity is to invent a formula and then try to follow it -- perhaps to the point of failure. This is a way to get past the "too many possibilities" mental block. And of course they're welcome to try a new formula when they get sick of the old one.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
    Yes but defining things this way seems to totally breakdown a distinction between 'art' and 'science'. To the point about whether an individual dominating his field is proof that his technique is science it's lacking. Dr. Luke may be Euler or he may be Picasso.
- sametmax 8y ago
  Do you really put "i kissed a girl" in the same ball bark as gernica ? I honestly liked the first and not the second. However, there is nothing original about the first. The second one is a once in history landmark.
wpietri 8y ago
I think there's more to the world than "formula" vs "talent". Skill would be one possible explanation. As would focus. So too could be having an emotional distance from the performances. Perhaps if Max Martin and Lukas Gottwald had formed a band in 1998 they wouldn't have a single top hit because they would have been putting their attention into performing, touring, and being celebrities. Instead somebody else might have been the producer whose narrow focus was tracking pop music, taking popular artists, and figuring out how to write a song that would take them to #1.
gxs 8y ago
This has always been an interesting question. You can look at luck as someone's luck in particular, or people's luck in general. The odds that any one person at a craps table rolls a 7 first are low, but the odds that someone at the table rolls a 7 first are a lot higher. Same thing with success in the way you mention it.
gt2 8y ago
Couldn't those guys' track of success be due to cronyism in the music industry? Their songs are formulaic. I'm sure many of these 2 guys' songs are played in this video that cycles through a long list of hit songs which have the same progression (transposed into the same key so the similarities can more easily be noticed) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlDewpCfZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlDewpCfZQ So perhaps anyone can write the songs, but not everyone has access to the pop stars (or access to these 2 guys). I'm not an expert song writer myself, but I am a musician and lover of music. Based on the fact that there's awesome music noone's ever heard of or that doesn't get as much play as some lesser quality music, I have to echo the common sentiment that the music industry is a fashion show/popularity contest with gatekeepers (still). Not saying it's not all a sham, I think the difference that comes from the human performing is huge, and I love to see and hear that.
- mattnewton 8y ago
  I think there may be some gatekeeping but also I think there really is a formula that more people like- and by taking ideas and tweaking them to sound sweeter and more energetic you get more sales. The bigs guys are just walking around and either signing talent to produce ideas for the pop-filter-Machine, or stealing their riffs wholesale.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Where is the gate keeping? Anyone can get their music on iTunes, Spotify, etc. by going through a company like CD Baby. Getting noticed on the other hand is harder. I don’t know how it works with pop music, but hip hop artists have a long history of selling CDs out of a trunk, marketing through barber shops, etc. and going around the establishment until they get noticed.
- tabtab 8y ago
  I have to admit I find many of those Martin & Gottwald tunes "catchy" for whatever reason. Cronyism alone can't create catchiness. Hard to argue with success. Bring on the cheese! Note that many tunes which use the common pop chord progressions also fail.
mattnewton 8y ago
Absolutely, imo the article missed who the pop music factory is copying. It isn’t always other pop artists, it’s other artists doing well in niches, that get pop-ified. “”” ... The constant iteration of tracks, all produced by the same formula, can result in accidental imitation—or, depending on the jury, purposeful replication. Seabrook recounts an early collaboration between Max Martin and Dr. Luke. They are listening, reportedly, to the Yeah Yeah Yeahs’ “Maps”—an infectious love song, at least by indie-rock standards. Martin is being driven crazy by the song’s chorus, however, which drops in intensity from the verse. Dr. Luke says, “Why don’t we do that, but put a big chorus on it?” He reworks a guitar riff from the song and creates Kelly Clarkson’s breakout hit, “Since U Been Gone.” “”” https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/hit-charade/403192/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/hit-cha... They had an inkling of that with their shape score thing when comparing Royals and Fancy at the end.
- rhizome 8y ago
  Pop music is a folk music, fundamentally dependent on its own history, but it just as fundamentally has to cannibalize the music underground in order to stay relevant.
bena 8y ago
That's a bit unfair of a comparison, both McCartney and Lennon have more hits than Max Martin. It's only when you look at the Beatles specifically does Martin have more success in terms of "hits". And technically talent _could_ account for it. If there were some kind of formula, it could be discerned from the songs they wrote and you'd have a more even playing field as more people could figure out the formula.
mygo 8y ago
> Talent alone can't account for this, as they are, all in all, more successfull than the Beatles or Michael Jackson. Yes it can. They could simply have more talent than the Beatles or Michael Jackson when it comes to manufacturing hits. Why couldn’t it be a combination of talent and formula? If it was solely a formula then more people would be having their success by following the same exact formula. Unless only they have the required ingredients. And whose to say their hit-manufacturing genius isn’t part of that recipe... in addition to the access to capital and access to market and brand recognition that makes popular artists choose to work with them for their best songs?
skookumchuck 8y ago
Movies famously follow a formula as well.
taneq 8y ago
> there is some kind of formula, and they figured it out Of course there's a formula: https://youtu.be/yBDNvlvR8vA https://youtu.be/yBDNvlvR8vA (link is Pop Music 101 to save you a click if you've already heard it)

21 8y ago

You could say the same thing about Picasso, or Leonardo da Vinci. Did they figure out some kind of formula?

analog31 8y ago
They may have thought so. One approach to creativity is to invent a formula and then try to follow it -- perhaps to the point of failure. This is a way to get past the "too many possibilities" mental block. And of course they're welcome to try a new formula when they get sick of the old one.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  Yes but defining things this way seems to totally breakdown a distinction between 'art' and 'science'. To the point about whether an individual dominating his field is proof that his technique is science it's lacking. Dr. Luke may be Euler or he may be Picasso.
sametmax 8y ago
Do you really put "i kissed a girl" in the same ball bark as gernica ? I honestly liked the first and not the second. However, there is nothing original about the first. The second one is a once in history landmark.

wpietri 8y ago

I think there's more to the world than "formula" vs "talent". Skill would be one possible explanation. As would focus. So too could be having an emotional distance from the performances. Perhaps if Max Martin and Lukas Gottwald had formed a band in 1998 they wouldn't have a single top hit because they would have been putting their attention into performing, touring, and being celebrities. Instead somebody else might have been the producer whose narrow focus was tracking pop music, taking popular artists, and figuring out how to write a song that would take them to #1.

gxs 8y ago

This has always been an interesting question. You can look at luck as someone's luck in particular, or people's luck in general. The odds that any one person at a craps table rolls a 7 first are low, but the odds that someone at the table rolls a 7 first are a lot higher. Same thing with success in the way you mention it.

gt2 8y ago

Couldn't those guys' track of success be due to cronyism in the music industry? Their songs are formulaic. I'm sure many of these 2 guys' songs are played in this video that cycles through a long list of hit songs which have the same progression (transposed into the same key so the similarities can more easily be noticed) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlDewpCfZQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOlDewpCfZQ So perhaps anyone can write the songs, but not everyone has access to the pop stars (or access to these 2 guys). I'm not an expert song writer myself, but I am a musician and lover of music. Based on the fact that there's awesome music noone's ever heard of or that doesn't get as much play as some lesser quality music, I have to echo the common sentiment that the music industry is a fashion show/popularity contest with gatekeepers (still). Not saying it's not all a sham, I think the difference that comes from the human performing is huge, and I love to see and hear that.

mattnewton 8y ago
I think there may be some gatekeeping but also I think there really is a formula that more people like- and by taking ideas and tweaking them to sound sweeter and more energetic you get more sales. The bigs guys are just walking around and either signing talent to produce ideas for the pop-filter-Machine, or stealing their riffs wholesale.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Where is the gate keeping? Anyone can get their music on iTunes, Spotify, etc. by going through a company like CD Baby. Getting noticed on the other hand is harder. I don’t know how it works with pop music, but hip hop artists have a long history of selling CDs out of a trunk, marketing through barber shops, etc. and going around the establishment until they get noticed.
tabtab 8y ago
I have to admit I find many of those Martin & Gottwald tunes "catchy" for whatever reason. Cronyism alone can't create catchiness. Hard to argue with success. Bring on the cheese! Note that many tunes which use the common pop chord progressions also fail.

mattnewton 8y ago

Absolutely, imo the article missed who the pop music factory is copying. It isn’t always other pop artists, it’s other artists doing well in niches, that get pop-ified. “”” ... The constant iteration of tracks, all produced by the same formula, can result in accidental imitation—or, depending on the jury, purposeful replication. Seabrook recounts an early collaboration between Max Martin and Dr. Luke. They are listening, reportedly, to the Yeah Yeah Yeahs’ “Maps”—an infectious love song, at least by indie-rock standards. Martin is being driven crazy by the song’s chorus, however, which drops in intensity from the verse. Dr. Luke says, “Why don’t we do that, but put a big chorus on it?” He reworks a guitar riff from the song and creates Kelly Clarkson’s breakout hit, “Since U Been Gone.” “”” https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/hit-charade/403192/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/10/hit-cha... They had an inkling of that with their shape score thing when comparing Royals and Fancy at the end.

rhizome 8y ago
Pop music is a folk music, fundamentally dependent on its own history, but it just as fundamentally has to cannibalize the music underground in order to stay relevant.

bena 8y ago

That's a bit unfair of a comparison, both McCartney and Lennon have more hits than Max Martin. It's only when you look at the Beatles specifically does Martin have more success in terms of "hits". And technically talent _could_ account for it. If there were some kind of formula, it could be discerned from the songs they wrote and you'd have a more even playing field as more people could figure out the formula.

mygo 8y ago

> Talent alone can't account for this, as they are, all in all, more successfull than the Beatles or Michael Jackson. Yes it can. They could simply have more talent than the Beatles or Michael Jackson when it comes to manufacturing hits. Why couldn’t it be a combination of talent and formula? If it was solely a formula then more people would be having their success by following the same exact formula. Unless only they have the required ingredients. And whose to say their hit-manufacturing genius isn’t part of that recipe... in addition to the access to capital and access to market and brand recognition that makes popular artists choose to work with them for their best songs?

skookumchuck 8y ago

Movies famously follow a formula as well.

taneq 8y ago

> there is some kind of formula, and they figured it out Of course there's a formula: https://youtu.be/yBDNvlvR8vA https://youtu.be/yBDNvlvR8vA (link is Pop Music 101 to save you a click if you've already heard it)