4 ms·

>Side note, Netflix isn't using any traffic. They're not sending me a UHD video stream unsolicited. I'm using the traffic. Milk companies put their lorries in

by rjvbk 8y ago

>Side note, Netflix isn't using any traffic. They're not sending me a UHD video stream unsolicited. I'm using the traffic. Milk companies put their lorries in the highway to deliver their products. You're the one buying milk. Are you the one who's using the highways? If Netflix wants a premium highway let them pay for it. Otherwise they will have to use the normal highway, the one that's worked fine until Netflix decided to fill it with lorries.

scwoodal 8y ago
The grocery store bought the milk so that’s why the truck is on the highway. The truck (Netflix) wouldn’t be there if the grocery store (customer) didn’t order the milk.
strogonoff 8y ago
If we imagine Netflix traffic as milk trucks delivering milk B2C, the “downlink” road to a milk buyer’s house would likely be maintained by neighborhood home owners’ association, thus ultimately paid for by the consumer. Those highways between the farm and the neighborhood, though… Anyway, either the analogy breaks or it’s onto something!
corobo 8y ago
In a less direct sense, yes. If there was no demand for milk in my area there would be no milk lorries sent to my area Sidebar: I do wish HN had a rule against these kinds of analogies as they do other reddit-esque puns and the likes. The internet is not like a milk truck, it's not like a series of tubes, it's like 1s and 0s being communicated across a worldwide mesh of cables of varying material under the control of varying entities We're all at least vaguely techy enough that we're on HN, we can understand at least the basics. Lets talk about what it is, not what it's like.
deno 8y ago
Let’s break it down: BOB pays ALICE for a connection at fixed uplink/downlink parameters to the public collective of interconnected autonomous networks commonly referred to as INTERNET. BOB uses the service as advertised to connect to CAROL’s autonomous network. ALICE fails to adequately peer with CAROL’s autonomous network and calls it a feature. BOB can’t switch ISPs because ALICE has monopoly on the service where he lives. ALICE tries to muddy the waters with nonsensical milk lorry analogies that have nothing to do with fiber optic cables to maintain its monopoly and further leverage it to run protection racket on CAROL. Sounds about right? When BOB is paying ALICE for the service, he is implicitly paying for whatever “highway” connects his house and CAROL’s milk depots. Everything between the two points is ALICE’s responsibility. If ALICE doesn’t like that BOB mostly orders his milk from CAROL’s then she shouldn’t offer the service as supporting fixed amount of lorries per hour.
- rjvbk 8y ago
  >ALICE fails to adequately peer with CAROL’s autonomous network and calls it a feature. It also works the other way around: CAROL does not want to pay ALICE to have premium access. Also, laughable that you call me a shill. Seems like the most used argument when you don't agree with someone. I'm not even American. So your "BOB can't switch ISPs" does not even apply here.
  - deno 8y ago
    > It also works the other way around: CAROL does not want to pay ALICE to have premium access. How does this logically follow? CAROL advertises fixed downlink/uplink connection to any autonomous network. How is it “premium access” to deliver on what you are actually advertising? It’s like selling SSD drives and then saying oh yeah but if you store video files in this particular video codec they will play at only 15 fps unless the codec vendor pays us extra for a firmware update. > So your "BOB can't switch ISPs" does not even apply here. It applies to the particular Netflix/neutrality debate.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    > also works the other way around: CAROL does not want to pay ALICE to have premium access. As others have mentioned there is no extra "premium" access needed. Netflix pays for their whole upstream, probably a bit extra for redundant uplinks etc. Customers pay for the entire downstream. Everyone in between just have to accept the bits and forward them within reasonable time (Netflix has some caching in the client so it shouldn't be to hard unless someone has oversold their capacity.) > Also, laughable that you call me a shill. I looked at your recent comment history and I agree. That said you really seem to defend an undefendable practice to the point where I understand where people get that idea from. So I'd rather guess you enjoy annoying people on the internet to see them get mad.
nerdponx 8y ago
Milk companies put their lorries in the highway to deliver their products. You're the one buying milk. Are you the one who's using the highways? Yes, I think that is the right way to think about things here. As to the rest of your comments - Imagine if Amazon could pay the USDOT for special lane on the highway.
dwild 8y ago
Except that I pay for an highway that should support 100 mb/s and they pay for an highway that should support 100 mb/s, yet it only support 10 mb/s. The Netflix route is using too much bandwidth? Then upgrade it, that's what your customer pay you for. For sure there will be route that will be unequal, some too big, some too small, but that's part of ISP job to make sure its impact is minimal.

by rjvbk 8y ago

scwoodal 8y ago

The grocery store bought the milk so that’s why the truck is on the highway. The truck (Netflix) wouldn’t be there if the grocery store (customer) didn’t order the milk.

strogonoff 8y ago

If we imagine Netflix traffic as milk trucks delivering milk B2C, the “downlink” road to a milk buyer’s house would likely be maintained by neighborhood home owners’ association, thus ultimately paid for by the consumer. Those highways between the farm and the neighborhood, though… Anyway, either the analogy breaks or it’s onto something!

corobo 8y ago

In a less direct sense, yes. If there was no demand for milk in my area there would be no milk lorries sent to my area Sidebar: I do wish HN had a rule against these kinds of analogies as they do other reddit-esque puns and the likes. The internet is not like a milk truck, it's not like a series of tubes, it's like 1s and 0s being communicated across a worldwide mesh of cables of varying material under the control of varying entities We're all at least vaguely techy enough that we're on HN, we can understand at least the basics. Lets talk about what it is, not what it's like.

deno 8y ago

Let’s break it down: BOB pays ALICE for a connection at fixed uplink/downlink parameters to the public collective of interconnected autonomous networks commonly referred to as INTERNET. BOB uses the service as advertised to connect to CAROL’s autonomous network. ALICE fails to adequately peer with CAROL’s autonomous network and calls it a feature. BOB can’t switch ISPs because ALICE has monopoly on the service where he lives. ALICE tries to muddy the waters with nonsensical milk lorry analogies that have nothing to do with fiber optic cables to maintain its monopoly and further leverage it to run protection racket on CAROL. Sounds about right? When BOB is paying ALICE for the service, he is implicitly paying for whatever “highway” connects his house and CAROL’s milk depots. Everything between the two points is ALICE’s responsibility. If ALICE doesn’t like that BOB mostly orders his milk from CAROL’s then she shouldn’t offer the service as supporting fixed amount of lorries per hour.

rjvbk 8y ago
>ALICE fails to adequately peer with CAROL’s autonomous network and calls it a feature. It also works the other way around: CAROL does not want to pay ALICE to have premium access. Also, laughable that you call me a shill. Seems like the most used argument when you don't agree with someone. I'm not even American. So your "BOB can't switch ISPs" does not even apply here.
- deno 8y ago
  > It also works the other way around: CAROL does not want to pay ALICE to have premium access. How does this logically follow? CAROL advertises fixed downlink/uplink connection to any autonomous network. How is it “premium access” to deliver on what you are actually advertising? It’s like selling SSD drives and then saying oh yeah but if you store video files in this particular video codec they will play at only 15 fps unless the codec vendor pays us extra for a firmware update. > So your "BOB can't switch ISPs" does not even apply here. It applies to the particular Netflix/neutrality debate.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- reitanqild 8y ago
  > also works the other way around: CAROL does not want to pay ALICE to have premium access. As others have mentioned there is no extra "premium" access needed. Netflix pays for their whole upstream, probably a bit extra for redundant uplinks etc. Customers pay for the entire downstream. Everyone in between just have to accept the bits and forward them within reasonable time (Netflix has some caching in the client so it shouldn't be to hard unless someone has oversold their capacity.) > Also, laughable that you call me a shill. I looked at your recent comment history and I agree. That said you really seem to defend an undefendable practice to the point where I understand where people get that idea from. So I'd rather guess you enjoy annoying people on the internet to see them get mad.

nerdponx 8y ago

Milk companies put their lorries in the highway to deliver their products. You're the one buying milk. Are you the one who's using the highways? Yes, I think that is the right way to think about things here. As to the rest of your comments - Imagine if Amazon could pay the USDOT for special lane on the highway.

dwild 8y ago

Except that I pay for an highway that should support 100 mb/s and they pay for an highway that should support 100 mb/s, yet it only support 10 mb/s. The Netflix route is using too much bandwidth? Then upgrade it, that's what your customer pay you for. For sure there will be route that will be unequal, some too big, some too small, but that's part of ISP job to make sure its impact is minimal.