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>Racist and horrifically anti Semitic Just like basically everyone else at the time.

by tzahola 8y ago

lostlogin 8y ago
To be clear, his anti-semitism extended to support of murderous pogroms. This wasn’t common elsewhere.
- littletimmy 8y ago
  Saying that the Tsar's death was because he was anti-semitic gives credibility to the notion that Bolshevism had a large Jewish influence. Is that what you're trying to say?
- tzahola 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hep-Hep_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hep-Hep_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_d...
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    The first and last are 100 years earlier and the second two relate to catholics. I may be missing your point but you don’t give any context to those sources.
    - tzahola 8y ago
      Yes, catholics. Why does it matter? Persecution is persecution, be it against jews, catholics, protestants, muslims, atheists, whatever. Also, you’re saying “100 years earlier” as if that’s a long timespan in history. I know, the USA is not much older than that, but in Europe, 100 years is nothing. And considering that ~40 years after the last Russian pogroms there was this thing called “the Holocaust”, I’m not really convinced that antisemitism was a thing of the past in Western Europe either.
      - lostlogin 8y ago
        You are right, it’s still there and does periodically make it into the news (eg the U.K. Labour Party is still struggling with anti-semitism this week). https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/labour-agrees-to-fresh-antisemitism-consultation-after-stormy-debate https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/... The cited persecution of Catholics was and is still undoubtably, but it things happening around the turn of the 20th century in Britain really weren’t of the same nature as what was happening in Russia, not at all. British weren’t raping and killing Catholics in massive waves of concerted violence with state involvement and approval and that’s exactly what was happening in Russia around that time. 100 years is relatively short time but I definitely argue that a lot has changed and the level of violence is declining. Pinker has some good article on the subject of violence but which notably don’t say anything about violence toward small groups, though say a lot about the larger picture. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-this-is-historys-most-peaceful-time-new-study-not-so-fast/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-thi... https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.htm...
JadeNB 8y ago
> > Racist and horrifically anti Semitic > Just like basically everyone else at the time. Does this really matter? I mean, one probably should understand racism and anti-Semitism in the context of their times, but that doesn't excuse them; a racist and anti-Semite is a horrible leader even if surrounded by people with those same horrible qualities. EDIT: Jeez, I hope the downvotes are because people find this off-topic or something, rather than because they disagree with the sentiment.
- tzahola 8y ago
  Let's say, that in a 100 years, we'll introduce the same fundamental rights to animals as we already have for humans. Killing animals and eating them would become a barbaric thing of the past. Would you find it fair if people of the future spat on your grave, and refer to you with the utmost contempt, because you were a meat eater? "He was a horrible, disgusting meat-eater! He deserved to die!"
  - mcgarnagle 8y ago
    Yes, that would be the logical thing to find fair once you forgo your current ego. Disclosure, I eat meat, and if people should critique me in the future, so be it. Half the people in this thread are ripping on Lenin because of the things he did, even though at the time they were mostly "lawful" since he wrote the law. We absolutely should disgrace the horrible things people did in the past, so that to not do them over again.
    - tzahola 8y ago
      "like many of his contemporaries, he held racist beliefs" vs "he was a disgusting racist antisemite! those bolsheviks sent him where he belongs! shooting and stabbing the whole family to death, hell yeah xDDDDD"
  - JadeNB 8y ago
    > He was a horrible, disgusting meat-eater! Possibly, if that's the consensus of current mores, but I didn't say that; I said that a racist and an anti-Semite is a horrible leader. > He deserved to die! No, I definitely didn't say that. In fact, lostlogin explicitly disclaimed this position (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17556982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17556982): > This doesn’t justify what happened to him, but certainly helps explain it. (emphasis mine). There are plenty of horrible people out there, but, most (and possibly all) of the time, wishing death on them is equally horrible.

>Racist and horrifically anti Semitic Just like basically everyone else at the time.

lostlogin 8y ago

To be clear, his anti-semitism extended to support of murderous pogroms. This wasn’t common elsewhere.

littletimmy 8y ago
Saying that the Tsar's death was because he was anti-semitic gives credibility to the notion that Bolshevism had a large Jewish influence. Is that what you're trying to say?
tzahola 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hep-Hep_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hep-Hep_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_d...
- lostlogin 8y ago
  The first and last are 100 years earlier and the second two relate to catholics. I may be missing your point but you don’t give any context to those sources.
  - tzahola 8y ago
    Yes, catholics. Why does it matter? Persecution is persecution, be it against jews, catholics, protestants, muslims, atheists, whatever. Also, you’re saying “100 years earlier” as if that’s a long timespan in history. I know, the USA is not much older than that, but in Europe, 100 years is nothing. And considering that ~40 years after the last Russian pogroms there was this thing called “the Holocaust”, I’m not really convinced that antisemitism was a thing of the past in Western Europe either.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      You are right, it’s still there and does periodically make it into the news (eg the U.K. Labour Party is still struggling with anti-semitism this week). https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/labour-agrees-to-fresh-antisemitism-consultation-after-stormy-debate https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/... The cited persecution of Catholics was and is still undoubtably, but it things happening around the turn of the 20th century in Britain really weren’t of the same nature as what was happening in Russia, not at all. British weren’t raping and killing Catholics in massive waves of concerted violence with state involvement and approval and that’s exactly what was happening in Russia around that time. 100 years is relatively short time but I definitely argue that a lot has changed and the level of violence is declining. Pinker has some good article on the subject of violence but which notably don’t say anything about violence toward small groups, though say a lot about the larger picture. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-this-is-historys-most-peaceful-time-new-study-not-so-fast/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-thi... https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html https://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.htm...

JadeNB 8y ago

> > Racist and horrifically anti Semitic > Just like basically everyone else at the time. Does this really matter? I mean, one probably should understand racism and anti-Semitism in the context of their times, but that doesn't excuse them; a racist and anti-Semite is a horrible leader even if surrounded by people with those same horrible qualities. EDIT: Jeez, I hope the downvotes are because people find this off-topic or something, rather than because they disagree with the sentiment.

tzahola 8y ago
Let's say, that in a 100 years, we'll introduce the same fundamental rights to animals as we already have for humans. Killing animals and eating them would become a barbaric thing of the past. Would you find it fair if people of the future spat on your grave, and refer to you with the utmost contempt, because you were a meat eater? "He was a horrible, disgusting meat-eater! He deserved to die!"
- mcgarnagle 8y ago
  Yes, that would be the logical thing to find fair once you forgo your current ego. Disclosure, I eat meat, and if people should critique me in the future, so be it. Half the people in this thread are ripping on Lenin because of the things he did, even though at the time they were mostly "lawful" since he wrote the law. We absolutely should disgrace the horrible things people did in the past, so that to not do them over again.
  - tzahola 8y ago
    "like many of his contemporaries, he held racist beliefs" vs "he was a disgusting racist antisemite! those bolsheviks sent him where he belongs! shooting and stabbing the whole family to death, hell yeah xDDDDD"
- JadeNB 8y ago
  > He was a horrible, disgusting meat-eater! Possibly, if that's the consensus of current mores, but I didn't say that; I said that a racist and an anti-Semite is a horrible leader. > He deserved to die! No, I definitely didn't say that. In fact, lostlogin explicitly disclaimed this position (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17556982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17556982): > This doesn’t justify what happened to him, but certainly helps explain it. (emphasis mine). There are plenty of horrible people out there, but, most (and possibly all) of the time, wishing death on them is equally horrible.