6 ms·

People in these countries work the longest hours according to OECD

26 points by To_soo 8y ago

kulu2002 8y ago
I think they completely forgot India
- makepanic 8y ago
  India isn't part of the OECD which means they don't have any data about it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD#Current_members https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD#Current_members
vegardx 8y ago
Hard to read an article when they beg you to subscribe to their webpage ever single time you scroll, even as little as one pixel, down.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  Yes, that is the one of the more annoying things I have seen. Cannot imagine people signing up to this with this kind of horrible in your face UI.
  - sofayam 8y ago
    Pretty much chased me away. Then I came here just so I could bitch about it. Content suicide.
geospeck 8y ago
Greece has the 4th position. Quite interesting since they've got the reputation of being lazy.
- Paul_S 8y ago
  Not a comment on Greece but time spent in the office doesn't equate to amount of work done.
  - donquichotte 8y ago
    In some cultures, napping during worktime is also common. It may even show that you are a dedicated, hard worker, getting some well-deserved rest.
    - rjvbk 8y ago
      In what cultures exactly?
      - dogma1138 8y ago
        Anecdotally Japan but I don’t know how common it is.
hmexx 8y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17450801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17450801
Grangar 8y ago
I don't think these statistics are correct. People in the Netherlands supposedly work 27 hours/week according to this data, whereas 36-40 hours is the common standard here. Even accounting for vacations et cetera that is terribly low. Also from the data source: "The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources and method of calculation." The data is unsuitable for this article.
- kijin 8y ago
  Yeah, the numbers are averaged over full-time, part-time, and seasonal workers according to the OECD report. A lower average could mean longer holidays and maternity leaves, but it could also mean that fewer people have full-time jobs. It's impossible to tell without knowing the distribution.
  - mkohlmyr 8y ago
    Having read the description on the OECD website it certainly looks to me like part-time and temporary work are skewing the graph. Also self-employment appears to correlate on one end of the spectrum. But as GP said, they acknowledge the data is unsuitable for this type of analysis entirely so it's all a bit pointless. Apples next to oranges in a bar graph comparing the relative qualities of pears.
- lucideer 8y ago
  Netherlands has (one of?) the highest rates of part time work, which would explain this disparity if you're thinking only of full time norms. > The data is unsuitable for this article That disclaimer is primarily dissuading comparing a single year across countries, which is reasonable (studies are usually performed within different time periods). The data is, as stated, perfectly suitable for identifying trends.
  - em500 8y ago
    > That disclaimer is primarily dissuading comparing a single year across countries, which is of course the entire content of the article. The data source (OECD) isn't blameless either: the default/main view of the data (https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm) shows exactly what their disclaimer says you shouldn't do.
eeZah7Ux 8y ago
What is the second chart? Where are links to sources and methodology?
- politelemon 8y ago
  Definitely finding that second chart confusing. The Y-Axis on both sides goes to 100. Are they the same metric (redundant) or different ones? And of course the bigger question is, what is it depicting? The preceding paragraph isn't helping in terms of context.
philliphaydon 8y ago
I don't trust the data at all. Japan is too low on the list, it should be up next to Korea as they pretty much have the same work ethic of not leaving the office before the boss.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Isn't it common for older Japanese to keep working? Maybe they do fewer hours, skewing the metrics?
- kijin 8y ago
  Koreans are fairly outspoken about their own problems. They make a big fuss about having to work long hours and not being paid enough for it. A new law just came into effect that makes it illegal to employ someone for more than 52 hours per week (with various exceptions), so there's been even more fuss about it lately. In Japan, the first rule of overtime is that you don't talk about overtime. Especially not to a researcher from an international organization who might badmouth your country.
lihaciudaniel 8y ago
Great article that proves more hours does not equal more productivity. If you are interested in productivity [1] this site helps. [1]:https://productivitygame.com https://productivitygame.com
drawkbox 8y ago
Germany has the best configuration regarding work/life balance as usual. When you are overworked you are too tired long term to create productivity improvements. When you can work less or make improvements to help you work less, you have a reason to create tools, processes, systems to work faster and more efficient. Example: if you worked 65 hours resulting in 40 hours of actual work, there is little time for building systems and tools that help you, if you are working 35 hours and actually working 30ish then you have lots of thinking time and you actually work more when in work mode. Humans need thinking time in their work, nearly all innovations come from problems found at work, where there is time to create long term solutions. I believe even rote tedious labor can be creative and lead to innovation as long at there is time for open and closed modes as John Cleese puts it. [1] > We've become fascinated by the fact that we can usually describe the way in which people function at work in terms of two modes: open and closed. > So what i can just add now is that creativity is not possible in the closed mode. By the "closed mode" I mean the mode that we are in most of the time when {we are} at work. > It's a mode in which we're very purposeful, and it's a mode in which we can get very stressed and even a bit manic, but not creative. > By contrast, the open mode, is relaxed… expansive… less purposeful mode… in which we're probably more contemplative, more inclined to humor (which always accompanies a wider perspective) and, consequently, more playful. > It's a mood in which curiosity for its own sake can operate because we're not under pressure to get a specific thing done quickly. We can play, and that is what allows our natural creativity to surface. > When Alexander Fleming had the thought that led to the discovery of penicillin, he must have been in the open mode. > But let me make one thing quite clear: we need to be in the open mode when we're pondering a problem but once we come up with a solution, we must then switch to the closed mode to implement it. Germany with their low working hours, allows more thinking, open modes and creativity, that leads to productivity improvements for closed mode work. The US system has efficiently worked out creativity and input from lower levels, more hours at work in closed mode and the uppers get to creatively move the resources around the board but are actually failing to grasp that they are missing half the equation, the open mode and creativity. They want their workers in closed mode while they are open to come up with efficiencies based on metrics, that misses whole swaths of knowledge from the actual work process and creativity that could be innovating to productivity improvements. The worker also finds little joy in an always closed mode job. Even if the job is a closed only mode job, less hours can lead to open modes that allow improvement even away from the work. [1] https://genius.com/John-cleese-lecture-on-creativity-annotated https://genius.com/John-cleese-lecture-on-creativity-annotat...
ezoe 8y ago
As a Japanese, The author took the average number without considering the situation. The article said Japanese has average work time of 1,713 hours per year. Not much Japanese people work like that. There are either over-worked full-time workers or under-worked part-time workers. Full-time workers work more than 2000 hours per year. part-time workers work about 1100 hours per year. The ratio of pert-time workers are increasing that's decreasing the average work time in Japan. You see, there aren't many Japanese work 1700 hours per year. Just a over-working anti-productive workers and under-working poor workers who can't find the full-time job for some reason(school, child, tax, disability) Bogus article.
purplejuice 8y ago
It almost convinced me that much more you work, less you produce... That's not true. The simple reality is that more developed countries don't need many hours of work, since they design products or run services (eg. financial).. so that poor countries are smashed with over-hours on manufacturing, logistic, etc.. The typical world order.. It actually happens in my company.. The coders are the ones who work more, and the ones who earn less - So.. apparently managers are the most productive here.
stared 8y ago
How do they gather data? Officially reported by employers or self-reported? Both of them can have huge biases, from both intended and unintended reasons. (Plus, in office job often there is no clear cut. People can be Facebooking (or HNing :)) in their working hours... or on top of 8h/day it may be quite a few hours of emails and stuff people are expected to do remotely.) And what is the main impact on the total number of working hours? (Part-time jobs? Holidays? Parental leaves? Sick leaves?)

26 points by To_soo 8y ago

kulu2002 8y ago

I think they completely forgot India

makepanic 8y ago
India isn't part of the OECD which means they don't have any data about it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD#Current_members https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD#Current_members

vegardx 8y ago

Hard to read an article when they beg you to subscribe to their webpage ever single time you scroll, even as little as one pixel, down.

tluyben2 8y ago
Yes, that is the one of the more annoying things I have seen. Cannot imagine people signing up to this with this kind of horrible in your face UI.
- sofayam 8y ago
  Pretty much chased me away. Then I came here just so I could bitch about it. Content suicide.

geospeck 8y ago

Greece has the 4th position. Quite interesting since they've got the reputation of being lazy.

Paul_S 8y ago
Not a comment on Greece but time spent in the office doesn't equate to amount of work done.
- donquichotte 8y ago
  In some cultures, napping during worktime is also common. It may even show that you are a dedicated, hard worker, getting some well-deserved rest.
  - rjvbk 8y ago
    In what cultures exactly?
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      Anecdotally Japan but I don’t know how common it is.

hmexx 8y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17450801 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17450801

Grangar 8y ago

I don't think these statistics are correct. People in the Netherlands supposedly work 27 hours/week according to this data, whereas 36-40 hours is the common standard here. Even accounting for vacations et cetera that is terribly low. Also from the data source: "The data are intended for comparisons of trends over time; they are unsuitable for comparisons of the level of average annual hours of work for a given year, because of differences in their sources and method of calculation." The data is unsuitable for this article.

kijin 8y ago
Yeah, the numbers are averaged over full-time, part-time, and seasonal workers according to the OECD report. A lower average could mean longer holidays and maternity leaves, but it could also mean that fewer people have full-time jobs. It's impossible to tell without knowing the distribution.
- mkohlmyr 8y ago
  Having read the description on the OECD website it certainly looks to me like part-time and temporary work are skewing the graph. Also self-employment appears to correlate on one end of the spectrum. But as GP said, they acknowledge the data is unsuitable for this type of analysis entirely so it's all a bit pointless. Apples next to oranges in a bar graph comparing the relative qualities of pears.
lucideer 8y ago
Netherlands has (one of?) the highest rates of part time work, which would explain this disparity if you're thinking only of full time norms. > The data is unsuitable for this article That disclaimer is primarily dissuading comparing a single year across countries, which is reasonable (studies are usually performed within different time periods). The data is, as stated, perfectly suitable for identifying trends.
- em500 8y ago
  > That disclaimer is primarily dissuading comparing a single year across countries, which is of course the entire content of the article. The data source (OECD) isn't blameless either: the default/main view of the data (https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm) shows exactly what their disclaimer says you shouldn't do.

eeZah7Ux 8y ago

What is the second chart? Where are links to sources and methodology?

politelemon 8y ago
Definitely finding that second chart confusing. The Y-Axis on both sides goes to 100. Are they the same metric (redundant) or different ones? And of course the bigger question is, what is it depicting? The preceding paragraph isn't helping in terms of context.

philliphaydon 8y ago

I don't trust the data at all. Japan is too low on the list, it should be up next to Korea as they pretty much have the same work ethic of not leaving the office before the boss.

icebraining 8y ago
Isn't it common for older Japanese to keep working? Maybe they do fewer hours, skewing the metrics?
kijin 8y ago
Koreans are fairly outspoken about their own problems. They make a big fuss about having to work long hours and not being paid enough for it. A new law just came into effect that makes it illegal to employ someone for more than 52 hours per week (with various exceptions), so there's been even more fuss about it lately. In Japan, the first rule of overtime is that you don't talk about overtime. Especially not to a researcher from an international organization who might badmouth your country.

lihaciudaniel 8y ago

Great article that proves more hours does not equal more productivity. If you are interested in productivity [1] this site helps. [1]:https://productivitygame.com https://productivitygame.com

drawkbox 8y ago

Germany has the best configuration regarding work/life balance as usual. When you are overworked you are too tired long term to create productivity improvements. When you can work less or make improvements to help you work less, you have a reason to create tools, processes, systems to work faster and more efficient. Example: if you worked 65 hours resulting in 40 hours of actual work, there is little time for building systems and tools that help you, if you are working 35 hours and actually working 30ish then you have lots of thinking time and you actually work more when in work mode. Humans need thinking time in their work, nearly all innovations come from problems found at work, where there is time to create long term solutions. I believe even rote tedious labor can be creative and lead to innovation as long at there is time for open and closed modes as John Cleese puts it. [1] > We've become fascinated by the fact that we can usually describe the way in which people function at work in terms of two modes: open and closed. > So what i can just add now is that creativity is not possible in the closed mode. By the "closed mode" I mean the mode that we are in most of the time when {we are} at work. > It's a mode in which we're very purposeful, and it's a mode in which we can get very stressed and even a bit manic, but not creative. > By contrast, the open mode, is relaxed… expansive… less purposeful mode… in which we're probably more contemplative, more inclined to humor (which always accompanies a wider perspective) and, consequently, more playful. > It's a mood in which curiosity for its own sake can operate because we're not under pressure to get a specific thing done quickly. We can play, and that is what allows our natural creativity to surface. > When Alexander Fleming had the thought that led to the discovery of penicillin, he must have been in the open mode. > But let me make one thing quite clear: we need to be in the open mode when we're pondering a problem but once we come up with a solution, we must then switch to the closed mode to implement it. Germany with their low working hours, allows more thinking, open modes and creativity, that leads to productivity improvements for closed mode work. The US system has efficiently worked out creativity and input from lower levels, more hours at work in closed mode and the uppers get to creatively move the resources around the board but are actually failing to grasp that they are missing half the equation, the open mode and creativity. They want their workers in closed mode while they are open to come up with efficiencies based on metrics, that misses whole swaths of knowledge from the actual work process and creativity that could be innovating to productivity improvements. The worker also finds little joy in an always closed mode job. Even if the job is a closed only mode job, less hours can lead to open modes that allow improvement even away from the work. [1] https://genius.com/John-cleese-lecture-on-creativity-annotated https://genius.com/John-cleese-lecture-on-creativity-annotat...

ezoe 8y ago

As a Japanese, The author took the average number without considering the situation. The article said Japanese has average work time of 1,713 hours per year. Not much Japanese people work like that. There are either over-worked full-time workers or under-worked part-time workers. Full-time workers work more than 2000 hours per year. part-time workers work about 1100 hours per year. The ratio of pert-time workers are increasing that's decreasing the average work time in Japan. You see, there aren't many Japanese work 1700 hours per year. Just a over-working anti-productive workers and under-working poor workers who can't find the full-time job for some reason(school, child, tax, disability) Bogus article.

purplejuice 8y ago

It almost convinced me that much more you work, less you produce... That's not true. The simple reality is that more developed countries don't need many hours of work, since they design products or run services (eg. financial).. so that poor countries are smashed with over-hours on manufacturing, logistic, etc.. The typical world order.. It actually happens in my company.. The coders are the ones who work more, and the ones who earn less - So.. apparently managers are the most productive here.

stared 8y ago

How do they gather data? Officially reported by employers or self-reported? Both of them can have huge biases, from both intended and unintended reasons. (Plus, in office job often there is no clear cut. People can be Facebooking (or HNing :)) in their working hours... or on top of 8h/day it may be quite a few hours of emails and stuff people are expected to do remotely.) And what is the main impact on the total number of working hours? (Part-time jobs? Holidays? Parental leaves? Sick leaves?)